Embracing the Undefinable Self with Charlie Rogers: Multi-Passionate Living, Emotional Integration & A Profitable Portfolio Career

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Either lean left and lean my
whole body into the tarmac and

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scrape it across the ground, or
I could hit the crash barrier

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that's going over this bridge
and go over the edge.

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And I chose the latter by
understanding and integrating

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energy as a equal motivation to
the pursuit of goals and the

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pursuit of thereby income is
something that I think is

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really, really powerful.
Quick note before we start, if

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you have enjoyed this podcast
and want to support our

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incredible guests, please follow
Low to grow podcast on Instagram

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and TikTok.
Welcome to Low to grow, the

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podcast transforming life's
toughest moments into

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opportunity for growth.
I'm Annie A Forbesander, 30,

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technology founder who's
entrepreneurship journey brand

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parallel to a mental health
awakening.

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In every episode, I sit down
with inspiring individuals and

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delve into how they managed to
turn their personal or

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professional challenges into
opportunities for growth.

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If you're facing uncertainty in
your life, feeling down, or

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simply need a kick of
inspiration to keep moving

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forward, this is your space for
the honest and uplifting

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conversations that you will want
to hear.

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Hit follow so you never miss an
episode and let's dive in.

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Today I am so excited to have
Charlie Rogers, the brains and

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the man behind the Undefinables
community.

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It's a space dedicated to people
who do not just fit into one box

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and honestly maybe folks who
don't want to fit into one box.

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Charlie coaches multi passionate
individuals by using his life

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design frameworks, intimate
community spaces and also

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meaningful transitions, helping
these individuals to build lives

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by actually honoring instead of
suppressing various parts of it.

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Charlie is a workshop
facilitator, A nonprofit

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community builder supporting
more than 40 members, and he

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also has a newsletter with over
1500 engaged readers.

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Now, just this year, in 2026,
Charlie published his debut book

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called Undefinable Life Design,
where he shares a practical and

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energizing model for how you can
turn your many interests into a

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sustainable and aligned life,
both financially and

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emotionally.
If you are someone who refuses

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to shrink your potential or to
choose between your passions,

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Charlie is a person that you
want to be listening from.

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Charlie, it's a pleasure to have
you on the Lottery Podcast.

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Who do you want to be listening
to our conversation today?

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Likewise, Annie.
It's great to be here too.

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I'd love for those who see
themselves as more than one

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thing, those who are living
beyond conventional labels, The

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undefinables amongst us.
Perhaps they call themselves

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more potential lights.
Perhaps they call themselves

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generalists, or perhaps they
call themselves something else

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entirely.
Or they maybe don't even have a

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label.
I'd love for them to be

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listening today and to hear what
we've got to share.

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I absolutely adore the fact that
you call your community of of

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people that are definables.
I actually really got to know

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your community and also your own
story when I came to one of your

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community events about finding
the golden thread.

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When did you first realize that
you yourself didn't fit into a

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single box?
And I said, how did that shape

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everything that came after?
So for me, there's lessons from

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childhood around wanting to be
an entrepreneur and think

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differently about how I build a
business.

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And there's times at school
where I started a talk shop when

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I was 15, starting school
selling like candy from our own

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house back in those days.
And there was a time of starting

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a clothing brand thereafterwards
as well.

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So they were the kind of
inklings, the beginnings of

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thinking I was seeing the world
a little bit differently.

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And I think it really came to a
head when I chose my A levels.

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I chose economics, history and
biology, which are some random

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combination and was often
advised against.

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People would say, you know,
where's that going?

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What's that leading to?
What's the point in you choosing

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those?
Why aren't you picking a path

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already?
And why aren't you thinking

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about how they could perhaps
become part of a medicine degree

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or a business degree?
And it's like, I just find them

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interesting and I want to
explore them more deeply.

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So choosing them was definitely
a starting point for kind of

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leaning in to my
undefineableness.

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And then when I chose my
university path as well, that

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was another double down on that
as well because I from that

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point decided that I wanted to
choose and prioritize love for

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as being my only choice, even
though it offered me the lowest

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grade offers.
Most people have a firm and a

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secondary choice.
I chose.

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It's my only one.
And that's because in my mind, I

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wanted the whole experience of
going to university, the

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societies, the people, the
sports, the whole academic

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experience, beyond just purely
sitting behind a screen and

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writing some essays at the time.
So for me, I wanted the broader

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experience.
And I think that that then

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became another kind of
undefinable step towards veering

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off the traditional path.
One that really veered me off

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while I was at uni was that I
decided to take on a year in

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enterprise.
Most people do a placement year

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where they worked for a company
for 12 months.

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In fact it's actually was
mandatory within Loughborough.

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But for me, I decided to turn
down an offer from Deloitte and

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instead go and work for myself
for the year, while also funding

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that journey by working part
time, 2 1/2 days a week as well.

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So that then led to this whole
start of my first business

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called postie redesign.
Parcel boxes, like attached to a

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house to receive deliveries from
you.

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That business I closed in
lockdown, so that was March 2020

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and my final year of university
and then started my second one

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house hack.
I didn't know the time.

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That was just a passion project
between housemates and lockdown.

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But that became my second
business.

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It turned into a profitable
business and we enjoyed the

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journey, had a lot of fun along
the way.

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And then over the next year and
a half, two years, we were self

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funded, able to travel around
the UK and make an actual living

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from it.
But then I got to a point where

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I felt that I outgrew it and I
wanted to move on to the next

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thing.
So I closed that business.

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The second one had a portfolio
career for a while where I

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figured things out.
And then I moved back home and

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decided to really sit with what
I want to spend the rest of my

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life doing and why on Earth was
my own golden thread.

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And that really focused me on
the future of careers and the

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future of work.
Since the start of 2023, I've

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really kind of narrowed myself
down to that being the core

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focus I've already spent my time
on.

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And that's, that's everything
that's happened since, which is,

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yeah, you know, a beauty and a
blessing.

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It's a beauty and a blessing
indeed.

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And I also really like how you
work with a lot of people that

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have many interests.
And from your kind of

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description of all the
entrepreneurial activities and

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initiatives that you started, I
think that very bold move of

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turning down Deloitte and
choosing to work for yourself

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that year.
I think that's, you know, all

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the hallmarks of a serial
entrepreneur.

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I found it really interesting
that you decided to go kind of

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away from building a product
based business to now focusing

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on working with people and
enabling people that have many

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interests to really, I guess to
the same process that you were

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able to do in the past few
years, which is find that golden

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thread through your life and
then build your life around it.

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Charlie, I'm also quite curious,
how do you manage to stay

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motivated over all of those
entrepreneurial activities and

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even your work right now with
the undefined IT was leading a

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business or being an
entrepreneur.

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That can be quite a lonely
journey sometimes.

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Yeah.
So this is something that I

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actually talk about in my
upcoming book as well.

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I talk about it being that there
are different fuels of

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motivation.
So for me, one of them is the

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purpose, the second is profit,
and the third is play.

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And how do I bring them all into
everything that I do?

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The community is a great example
of this for me in the sense that

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it's always intended to be a
nonprofit.

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It doesn't pay me directly, and
that's on purpose because I want

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it to be something that can
sustain us.

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Everyone as a member contributes
to it.

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And so there's also a line here
that I have to draw where if

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it's not-for-profit, how do I
stay motivated on the money

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side?
How do I actually make a living

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from this that can build wealth
for myself and my family in the

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future?
And so there came to a head

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where I had to decide that, OK,
I'm going to split the the kind

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of brand into underfundable
communities, being focused on

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those in the age of discovery
between 22 and 35, providing the

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intimate spaces.
And that being all about the way

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we have a community events that
we do, we do retreats, we do

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monthly workshops and we do
celebrations throughout the

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year.
And that's the scope of the

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community and that's what it's
all about.

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And yes, I might lead it, but
everyone contributes.

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But then on the for profit side
created Undefinable Life Design

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as the brand.
And that's where I host the

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workshops and do the one to one
coaching.

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And it's also where I'm writing
the book.

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And so me staying motivated is
allowing myself to turn up as

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the sort of playful version of
myself in the community where I

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know that this isn't paying me.
Even though there might be

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sometimes clients within it who
I work on a coaching basis or

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they might come to some of the
workshops or you read the book.

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I am selfishly motivated to
build the community in the sense

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that it deepens my understanding
of the persona and it creates

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advocates of what I'm building
elsewhere.

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But it also then allows me to
have it as a place that I can

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play and show up as my full
self.

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In fact, there was a retreat
back in May where that kind of

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came to a head where I felt like
I was having to wear a mask of

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being the one that handled the
answers.

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Because in the community then
was several clients.

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There's my partner, there's
friends.

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There's a lot of levels to that,
that blur and blend.

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And that's part of the beauty of
life.

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But it's also can be a little
bit overwhelming to have so many

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of your connections in one place
because you don't know how to

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shop for all of them.
And I found that when I shared

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that with everyone and said to
them, like, this is a struggle

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that I've had and I was just
naming it, it allowed me then to

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kind of show up as a more
integrated version of myself.

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And to say, look, just own the
challenges that I'm in and

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realize that there are other
people there that might be a

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client, yes, but they can also
see me for a fellow friend and

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community member too.
And so even though we're

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blurring the different labels,
it allows myself to feel a sense

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of relief when I turn up those
events too.

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There's also the element of
being able to delegate to like

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bring other people in to support
with some of the community

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building and the retreat leading
and the workshops.

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That allows me to spend my focus
on the for profit side and

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making a career and living out
of what I'm doing too.

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So I'd say there's a delegation
where possible.

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There's an understanding of
where to blur and where to set

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boundaries.
And then for me, it's enabling

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myself to stay motivated by sort
of having enough income coming

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in, but also hitting that
purpose every time I deliver

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something to.
That initial struggle that you

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had of trying to show up in
different ways to different

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people in your life at one
particular retreat, I think that

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actually quite resonated with
me.

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And I think the fight, fight,
you were able to share your

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vulnerability with everyone and
then also allow people in

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different parts of your life to
see aspects of you that maybe

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they weren't Privy to before.
I think that's quite a yeah, I

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think that's quite a supportive
move to do, has always been

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quite a core part of your life.
Can you talk about, you know,

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some of the failures or maybe
learnings from your time as a

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sportsperson and how that really
affects the work that you do

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now?
For sure, yeah, it's definitely

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integrated into how I see the
world.

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And if you want to continue
talking, you'll probably see

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some lenses come out from the
sport aspect too.

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00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,960
I started running when I was 14.
I joined as one of the worst

229
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:40,680
ones there at my club at school.
And by the time I left at 18,

230
00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:43,960
I'd continued showing up and
just got better and better and

231
00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:45,600
became vice captain at that
point.

232
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,120
And I was like, oh, this is
something that I know I can get

233
00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,320
better at things.
It proves that I can go from

234
00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,520
being not very competent to
being actually competent at

235
00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:54,960
something.
And that was the first sort of

236
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:59,920
siege of being able to reinforce
this idea that if I commit, I

237
00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:03,120
can get better at it.
And I applied that first from

238
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,960
that 14 to 18 in sport.
But also then I applied it to my

239
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:12,520
academics and went from ACC in
AS levels and resettled my exams

240
00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,640
and my final year of school and
got a star a A at the end of it

241
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,120
as well.
So I went from okay, I can get

242
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,000
good at sport, so I can get good
at academics and then now I can

243
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,720
get good at anything I put my
mind too.

244
00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,040
So it really enabled me to think
bigger and to trust myself as

245
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,080
well.
That then only continues to show

246
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,200
up through the sport over time.
So I went to Loughborough for

247
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:37,440
when I was 18 to 22, and that
was an environment where they're

248
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,600
all GB athletes and you go from
being OK, I'm vice captain, I'm

249
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,280
pretty good at this club, to
being one of the worst ones

250
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,680
again.
They start normalizing 100 mile

251
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:47,120
weeks.
You get used to them talking

252
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,760
about nutrition, double days,
doing 1012 runs a week.

253
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,720
That's pretty normal.
Going on the track and being,

254
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:58,560
yeah, the bottom third again,
but over time worked on it, how

255
00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:01,880
to coach and got better
throughout those four years.

256
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,320
Got to my final year and then
actually had COVID happened.

257
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:07,840
So I was actually the fittest
I'd been.

258
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,280
I was excited to go and race on
the track and, you know, put it

259
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,680
all out there and have all the
shining lights.

260
00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:15,640
But actually they all got
cancelled that year and they all

261
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,440
got cancelled for the following
year because close contact to

262
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,960
running means that it's a bit
harder to organize those races.

263
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,440
They were few and far between
and when the races did come up,

264
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,920
everyone was snapping them up
like they were everything to to

265
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,000
be had as well.
And so over the following year I

266
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:31,360
kind of focused more on
business.

267
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,400
And then end of sort of summer
of 2021, I got COVID myself and

268
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:37,920
just like, oh, I feel pretty
bad.

269
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,000
Haven't really left the house in
like 2 weeks.

270
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,280
And now my fitness has just gone
off the Cliff edge.

271
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:43,800
I'm like, what do I do with my
time?

272
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,320
How do I commit to a new goal
that's worthwhile?

273
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,600
I had on my list like do an Iron
Man and that was like a 10 year

274
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,200
aspirational bucket list goal.
I was like, what am I waiting

275
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:54,440
for?
Let me just sign up for it.

276
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:59,880
So I signed up for the following
year in summer 2022 and I moved

277
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:04,160
to London this September 21 and
I was like, right, OK, time to

278
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,520
join a Tri club.
I'm obviously quite good at

279
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,200
running but had to pick up
cycling and swimming.

280
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,080
So it became a way of expanding
myself beyond the labour, the

281
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,440
runner to become a triathlete in
this way.

282
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,560
And I saw myself being able to,
yeah, expand the identity that I

283
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:19,840
had.
And that was really powerful.

284
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,160
And I sort of saw how running
could become a great basis for

285
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,600
cycling, particularly on hills
where your power to weight ratio

286
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,400
is very important.
And my likeness as a runner was

287
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,120
useful in that regard as well.
I trained really hard over the

288
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,960
winter, was my own coach.
I applied the principles of

289
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,640
running to triathlon.
And then I got out to May, went

290
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,080
out to a training camp in
Majorca with the club, was

291
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,440
really excited by it.
I've been on this aluminium bike

292
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,120
all winter and they handed me
this carbon bike which if you

293
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,680
don't know is a lot lighter than
the aluminium bike.

294
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,840
And so I was flying up the hills
and was really enjoying myself

295
00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,520
getting some good club bests on
the hill climbs.

296
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:04,760
And then on the days where we
had 150 K day on the bike and

297
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:09,360
got about 100K in, did all of
the ascent and then was feeling

298
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:14,480
really happy myself, maybe a bit
too proud of sort of how fast I

299
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,520
was.
So decided Decided to take the

300
00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,760
descents a little too quickly
and there were about 3

301
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:24,720
switchbacks in quick succession,
which kind of that day the the

302
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,240
rain had been falling and the
leaves were on the ground and it

303
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,960
was getting a bit slippy.
But you know, I was a bit

304
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,440
overconfident at the time.
So I took the corners at 63

305
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,680
kilometers an hour.
And then by the third turn I

306
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,720
sort of realized, oh, these
brakes aren't breaking hard

307
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,400
enough.
And I kind of had a decision to

308
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,960
make, which was I could either
lean left and lean my whole body

309
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:49,040
into the tarmac and scrape it
across the ground, or I could

310
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,600
hit the crash barrier that's
going over this bridge and go

311
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,840
over the edge.
And I chose the ladder.

312
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,760
I'm not sure how much of A
choice that was given.

313
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,360
It's more of a subconscious one,
but.

314
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,560
Neither were great options were
they were.

315
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,760
Not great options at all.
Maybe there's also hit the

316
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,880
brakes harder, I don't know but
I tried and the bike was shaking

317
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:12,080
so I definitely did my best to
slide myself down but hit the

318
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,160
crash barrier and went over.
There's like a 10 foot drop and

319
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:16,880
then this river with rocks
below.

320
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,680
And I remember just like going
over, you kind of go through

321
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,160
that period of feeling like it's
surreal, like what's what's

322
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,520
going on here?
And then you go over and I

323
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,760
basically like pick myself up
from the side of this Cliff and

324
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,200
pull myself up the side of the
road.

325
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,040
And by the time I'm up it, I'm
like, whoa, OK, the adrenaline's

326
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,520
worn off and everything hurts
now.

327
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,800
And so then I lie down and I
have a team with me because I'm

328
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,120
out training on a training camp,
so they'll stop.

329
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,560
Everyone throws jackets on me.
I'm like, like, I know 20

330
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,760
jackets keep me warm or so.
Yeah.

331
00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,440
They call the the ambulance and
put like a tin, a foil wrapped

332
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,640
around me as well from a medical
bag somewhere.

333
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,400
And they bring up top of this
mountainside, pray to wait like

334
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,080
an hour or so for it.
When my friends jumps in the

335
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,359
back of the ambulance with me
and they drop me up on morphine,

336
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:09,440
take me to hospital and they do
all these X-rays on my arms and

337
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,960
the scouts come back and they
say the only thing I've broken

338
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,040
is my little finger.
How lucky.

339
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,440
How lucky indeed.
Everything else is like bruised

340
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,079
and it will heal in time.
It did hurt a lot at that time

341
00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:27,599
and I have got some scars down
my arms from the barbed wire on

342
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:29,720
that client as well that still
exists to this day.

343
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,400
But they said to me the same day
they were like if you can prove

344
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,760
you can walk, you can go home.
And I was like, well you've drug

345
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,520
me up enough, I can walk if I'm
nothing's broken, sure.

346
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,360
So what with some pain and then
went home the same day back to

347
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:45,560
the hotel and then felt sorry
myself for the next week where I

348
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,040
sat by the poolside.
Whatever.

349
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,920
I went out on a nice rides and
then I had to make a choice.

350
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,760
OK, I've got his Iron Man in
what is now a month and a half's

351
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,760
time.
Do I, you know, wait and get fit

352
00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:02,640
again and just cross a line or
do I to instead decide to defer

353
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,320
it by year and train properly
and do it to the best of my

354
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,360
abilities?
And I sat with that thought for

355
00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:11,040
quite a while because I was
like, maybe if I just push

356
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,600
through, maybe I can just do it.
You know, I'm here to finish a

357
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,040
goal.
I'm just about the achievement.

358
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:21,160
But then I found that actually
deferring a year was the harder

359
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,120
thing to do because it required
me to recommit for another 12

360
00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:29,440
months and to actually take on
the challenge of training again,

361
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,240
but going even deeper into the
the world of triathlon and

362
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,200
endurance sport.
And so I did that.

363
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:41,000
I decided to fur buy a year and
then I did a half Iron Man that

364
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,360
September.
Has had a few months to get fit

365
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:47,000
again, Actually qualified for
world champs as well, which was

366
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,280
pretty cool.
And so then I felt confident

367
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:50,920
myself.
Last night let me invest in a

368
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,320
pro coach.
I worked with a silver medalist

369
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,280
at the Commonwealth Games and
they gave me a training plan.

370
00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:00,640
I put 15 to 20 hours a week into
it every week for nine months

371
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,920
from September through till
June, July the following year of

372
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,360
2023.
And that's where I did my Iron

373
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:09,240
Man.
And you know, this is the the

374
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,320
race I've been preparing for for
what is now 2 years at that

375
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,480
point.
And I'd had these time estimates

376
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,280
in my mind, I won in the sub 10
hours because it's a nice, nice

377
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,600
time.
I'd pick the hardest race

378
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,760
basically out there, which was
Iron Man UK like had about, was

379
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:29,400
it 2703 thousand meters
elevation on the bike and hilly

380
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,680
run and swim as well.
And so, you know, I was

381
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,640
thinking, you know, what if,
what if I can keep pushing these

382
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,520
different times that I want to
get further and further.

383
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,600
And so when I did the race, I
got 11 hours, 3 minutes, which

384
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,040
by all measures is pretty good.
I put me 7 in my age group and I

385
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,360
think like yes, overall or
something, which is pretty good

386
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:53,160
for a first Iron Man.
But at the time when I crossed

387
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,440
that line, beyond just feeling
my whole body start to cramp

388
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,560
because of lack of salts, I also
was thinking, wow, OK, you know,

389
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,840
I haven't achieved my goal.
Like what was the point?

390
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,360
It doesn't really feel that good
because I've weighed the

391
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:07,880
expectations so highly.
It felt like I had a yes no

392
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,960
outcome to the race rather than
having a sort of, it's just a

393
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,200
great experience anyway and a
bonus if I achieved my time.

394
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,320
I'd very much formatted it in a
way of I want it to be this

395
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,240
success.
And it wasn't that success, but

396
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,760
it was a different version.
I then did the Iron Man, 70

397
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,320
points, three world champs that
summer.

398
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,680
I had a great time, would also
train that year.

399
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,360
I managed to qualify for
representing GB at the age group

400
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,640
European Trath on the following
year in 2024.

401
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,920
So then got a running coach
again, committed to doing the

402
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,600
London Marathon because I got my
best times that year with

403
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,280
triathlon and went to London
Marathon.

404
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,360
I applied the same mindset,
obviously haven't learned

405
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:49,360
anything by this point and was
like, oh, let me try and get sub

406
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:53,760
two hours 30 in my my marathon,
which by all measures is a great

407
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:58,200
time again.
And and I went to the race

408
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,120
trained all sort of all year for
it.

409
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,520
And I crossed the line in two
hours, 40, and the first half of

410
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:10,920
the race was one hour 1449.
So like bang on the exact like

411
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,520
half marathon time I need.
And then the second-half, you

412
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,240
could look at my pace graph on
Strawberry.

413
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,600
It's rather amusing.
It just drops off at like 30 K

414
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:21,560
and then I have to like pick it
up again.

415
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,120
And the last sort of like 5K is
just increasing again.

416
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:27,760
But there's this big nose lie
between 30 and 35 Ki.

417
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,960
Remember in that race when I was
just running down the sort of

418
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,640
home straight from Monument
across back to to Westminster

419
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,320
and Oh yeah, I was just getting
overtaken all the time because

420
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,840
I've obviously started faster.
So everyone's kind of beyond me

421
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,560
with faster average speeds.
And this felt like I was going

422
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,000
backwards.
And there's all these crowds

423
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,720
like cheering at you, sort of
shouting and there's no, it's

424
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,760
the most busy experience you
ever you ever have.

425
00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:55,640
And it was rather overwhelming
as well, but made it to the sort

426
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,400
of last home straight and yeah,
cross the line by getting faster

427
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,440
all the time.
And yeah, the two hours 40 I got

428
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,120
there, like it took me a little
while to reframe that.

429
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,640
At first I was like disappointed
that I got on a stitch and I'd

430
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,200
hit the runners wall as everyone
does in that first marathon.

431
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,440
But after I'd say a few days a
week, I was like, actually, you

432
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:15,760
know, I'm proud of how I showed
up.

433
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,560
I'm proud of the fact that I
finished that race.

434
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,920
I could have just dropped out
and been like, oh, I'm just feel

435
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,360
bad.
No, OK, I won't do it.

436
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,280
But I still actually crossed the
line.

437
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,800
And I think that that then
helped me unlearn that mindset a

438
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,480
little bit.
And so when it came to the

439
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,960
European Championships for the
triathlon that summer, I then

440
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,720
approached a bit differently.
I was like, you know what, I'm

441
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,080
actually just going to enjoy
that race.

442
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,080
I'm going to have fun.
I've already done the hard part

443
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,000
of qualifying, so it doesn't
really matter where I finish.

444
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,160
It's more about just showing up,
getting a nice GB vest, putting

445
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,200
it on socials and being, look,
I'm a credible guy.

446
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,560
So like, that's why I went along
to France, to Vichy and actually

447
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,880
out there.
I even managed to on the bike

448
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,680
and slipped around the corner
and the bike went underneath me.

449
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,280
I had to pick it up again with
these bent handlebars and

450
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,960
finished the race in a very slow
way because I wouldn't want to

451
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,920
risk falling over again this
pouring rain.

452
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:05,200
But I was happy.
I was like, yeah, I had fun and

453
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,160
it was good and I enjoyed it.
And I felt like this is a

454
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,120
reframe for me.
It's no longer about a time or a

455
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:13,040
place.
It's more about the experience

456
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,080
and the adventure.
So following that race, there's

457
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,520
one more.
I went and signed up for an

458
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,920
Ultramarathon, which on paper
sounds like I'm just following

459
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,560
the same path here.
But actually when I got to the

460
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,680
ultra marathon and done the
training at the start of this

461
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,920
year and went out to it in May
to France and to Strasbourg, I

462
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,240
actually had a very different
mindset again.

463
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:36,720
I was like, okay, I'm gonna
listen to my body.

464
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,160
I'm gonna integrate both the
achiever, the one that wants to

465
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,520
compete and to push hard with
the one that understands my

466
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,400
emotion and can integrate it
more.

467
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,200
And that's been the theme of
2025 is emotional integration.

468
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:54,760
And so when I got like 87 K into
that ultra marathon when I was

469
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,840
running down the hill and came
to the aid station while it's

470
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,200
getting dark, I found myself out
of out of breath.

471
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,920
And I was like, oh, wow, OK, I
need to speak to like a first

472
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,040
aid.
People always spoke to them and

473
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,760
they're like, you've just been
pushing the last section too

474
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,240
hard.
Just sit down for a bit, chill

475
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,520
out and you'll be fine.
And I remember with my support

476
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,680
team sitting there and I
literally stayed there for like

477
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,520
an hour and a half in the
that's.

478
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,600
A long time.
Which is a long time in a race.

479
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,600
Yeah.
Yeah, you got a cut off of like

480
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,120
24 hours.
And I had again a broad time of

481
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:26,360
16 to 20 hours.
In my mind, I wanted to achieve

482
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:30,200
it him, so to wait an hour and a
half is a long time in a race.

483
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,240
But got my food in, chatted to
people.

484
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,520
I went from looking like a ghost
at the beginning to like

485
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,200
actually having my color back.
And I put my head torch on and

486
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,560
ascended the last climb and then
brought it home in like 18

487
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,800
hours, 45 or so.
So I still achieved my aim and

488
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,000
managed to cross the line by
overtaking a guy in the last 100

489
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,480
meters as well.
So I still had fun.

490
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,760
I still had the competitive
element, but I think what was

491
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,520
different here and what I now
carry forward with me is the

492
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:01,400
ability to integrate the emotion
and to take that as part of who

493
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,200
I am so I can have a more
adventure focused aspect to

494
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,480
sport rather than it being
purely about achievement too.

495
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,760
And a more well-rounded
enjoyment of all the sport and

496
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,640
training that you're doing.
The story out that you describe

497
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,600
for someone who goes from a
really focused, almost single

498
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,560
minded determination to achieve
a very specific result to

499
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,080
someone who's they got a few
punches or even actually have an

500
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,360
internal change to reframe it as
you were saying, to actually

501
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:31,920
enjoying the process and also
celebrating the wings that you

502
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,400
were able to do.
I'm going to ask you a question

503
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,960
because I think to a certain
degree, I think I have a similar

504
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,560
personality type to you in terms
of I can be very single minded

505
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,320
once I have a goal that I want
to work towards and that's all

506
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,200
that I want to do.
And sometimes I lose track of

507
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,280
enjoying the process or enjoying
that more emotional aspect as

508
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,520
well.
How did that reframe actually

509
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,880
come about for you?
Was it something that came to

510
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,480
you internally by your own
introspection, or did you have

511
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,040
help from other people around
you?

512
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,120
How did that whole journey come
about for you?

513
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,680
I would try this back to the
last two years.

514
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,600
I would say the beginning of
2024.

515
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:10,680
My theme of 2024 was emotional
thawing, and I knew that by

516
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,960
that.
The second week of January, I

517
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,040
was reflecting that I write my
newsletter and I push it out

518
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,080
weekly.
And in that weekly newsletter I

519
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,120
was like, this year is about
emotional thawing, like I

520
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:22,720
already know it.
And it only became more true.

521
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:27,160
I became more aware of how I
show up in are the social

522
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,600
situations, how I can be more
emotional.

523
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,360
And in fact, I remember speaking
to a friend and I was describing

524
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:36,680
one of the stories that I'd had
from a past relationship.

525
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,800
I gave it the same robotic
answer that I'd always given in

526
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,320
the fact that I'd shared the
story so many times that it no

527
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,400
longer felt like it connected to
me.

528
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,080
I was just sharing it to speak
about it and connect with them,

529
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,680
but wasn't actually revealing a
vulnerability of me.

530
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,000
And they called me out for
hours, like, oh, OK, yeah,

531
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,240
that's fair play.
I'm not actually being very open

532
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,840
or emotional here.
I'm just repeating and parroting

533
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,440
what I've said before.
And that I think started a

534
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,240
process of understanding that
for me, I need to, I want to

535
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,440
show up more as who I am and
more integrated version of

536
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,160
myself that can answer those
questions more authentically.

537
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,040
And so that times by being my
partner, Jess as well, who I'm

538
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,240
sure she might be saying this is
a more emotional based person

539
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,480
for her to like bring that out
and me as well.

540
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,600
And for us to have a lot of
great chats and a meaningful

541
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,960
dialogue over the last two years
is definitely being a source of

542
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,040
that reflection and a source of
that kind of not seeing emotion

543
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,760
as the enemy.
And I think if I think about

544
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,760
Khachogi, he often would
describe you have to become a

545
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,800
master of your emotions and you
cannot be a subject to it.

546
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,520
And it's often placing emotions
as being the thing that leads

547
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,640
you to do the wrong thing and to
be responsive in ways that you

548
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,640
don't intend.
If you lean purely on a logic

549
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,960
basis, you just end up thinking
that emotions are things to be

550
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,560
avoided because they limit me in
achieving things.

551
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,520
But what I've learned in the
last two years is that they are

552
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,880
valuable signals to
understanding yourself and

553
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,480
situations.
I wouldn't necessarily quite

554
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,520
lean as hard onto emotions
always, right?

555
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:11,960
I don't think that's necessarily
true.

556
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,440
But they are powerful signals
for understanding who you are,

557
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,320
where you are, and what's
important to you.

558
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,360
And so by listening to them and
tuning into them, you are able

559
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:26,200
then to hear what you need.
And so when you ask me about how

560
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:31,280
do I like motivate myself, like
I can find there, I'm more able

561
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,680
to connect to myself and
understand what's missing.

562
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,400
And that becomes really powerful
as well because I can then make

563
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:43,160
tweaks and changes and I can
show up wholly as myself by

564
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,240
listening to the body at the
same time as pursuing things

565
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,720
relentlessly with the mind as
well.

566
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,800
The way I frame in the book,
it's actually my chapter that I

567
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,160
added in this final version of
the book is about the body first

568
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,640
listening to the signals, being
able to integrate them into

569
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,840
decisions, and then also
updating your baseline.

570
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,360
So when I think about sport, for
me, I also see it as, like, I

571
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,120
mean, I want to do every week
for the rest of my life because

572
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,520
it's a great baseline for me.
It's showing up elsewhere.

573
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,880
And so by listening to signals,
I can be like, what other

574
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,560
baseline changes do I want to
make?

575
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,920
Do I want to make sure that I
have a date night every week?

576
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,600
Do I want to make sure that I'm
always eating certain foods

577
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,520
every week?
Yeah, OK, I can do that.

578
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,520
But I can only do that if I can
hear my body asking for it.

579
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,400
And I feel with that mindset,
you can apply both a logic and

580
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,080
an emotion to it, and it becomes
really strong.

581
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,400
Reading emotions as signals, I
think that's quite a useful

582
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,600
thing to do.
I also think that a lot of the

583
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,280
times young people, and it could
be people who are 20s, thirties,

584
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,480
it's difficult to be able to
accurately read what your

585
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,760
signals or your emotions are
trying to tell you.

586
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,000
How have you found that
yourself?

587
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,800
And I said, what advice would
you give to someone who maybe

588
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,800
are trying to read more into
their emotions and understand

589
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,320
what that signal is, but they
find sometimes they're not

590
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,080
making the right decisions from
what they are feeling?

591
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,000
Great question.
Depends a lot on the individual.

592
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,560
I'd say the key element here to
look for is the frequency of the

593
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,120
emotion.
So if the emotion and the

594
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,920
frequency is high, you're
feeling it very often, then it's

595
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,400
worth pursuing it and applying
some logic and reflection and

596
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,560
journaling to understand it.
If it's a one off, OK, cool, we

597
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,080
could probably ignore it, it's
probably OK.

598
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,360
But if it's also really
irrational, that's something

599
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,000
worth exploring in a different
way where it might be an

600
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,120
emotional trigger.
That's worth exploring with a

601
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,840
therapist by looking into your
past patterns and how this thing

602
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,280
that's seemingly innocent that
someone does or environment that

603
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,640
you're in that doesn't, it
shouldn't affect you in this

604
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,200
way, but it does.
That's something that's worth

605
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,400
diving into your past about.
And like for me, an example

606
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,320
there is around like sometimes I
don't like being in corners of

607
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,640
rooms or having people stand up
while everyone else is sitting

608
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,080
down.
I find that really weird.

609
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,520
And I can't say I have the words
to describe why that is.

610
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,720
I don't know if there's probably
a child experience of one person

611
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,360
standing up, other people
sitting down.

612
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,480
But because I know that it's
like a kind of weird quirk about

613
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,440
myself where I can kind of get a
bit anxious of someone standing

614
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,120
up and everyone else sitting
down.

615
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,800
And I'm like, oh, OK, can you
just do you mind sitting down

616
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:14,400
there?
Is that OK?

617
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,520
And now I feel able to ask that
of someone and it not be a weird

618
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,400
thing versus because before I'd
be like, oh I'm just brush it

619
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:22,880
off.
I'm the one being weird.

620
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,200
But actually here if I can go,
hey man, I'm not really sure why

621
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,160
I feel this way.
But having one person stand out

622
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,080
where everyone sits down, it
feels a bit uncomfortable for

623
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,400
me.
Like would you mind sitting down

624
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,400
with the rest of us?
That's so interesting because

625
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,240
that reminds me of a classroom,
like a standard classroom where

626
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,480
the teacher stands up the front
and everyone else has sat down.

627
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,240
So yeah, very, very interesting.
Maybe it comes from that, maybe

628
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,600
I've got a teaching experience
to reflect on or dive into your

629
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:45,560
therapy.
I'm not sure yet.

630
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,200
But at least by understanding
what causes it, I can then

631
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,520
request a change that doesn't
make me feel uncomfortable.

632
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,440
But also if I then got deeper in
therapy I'm sure I could unknown

633
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,160
some as patterns too.
Well, as you were speaking, I

634
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,360
was also thinking, you know, one
of the things that I noticed,

635
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,040
we're growing up and interacting
more with people in older

636
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,480
generations than I am, It's
actually realizing that no

637
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,400
request is weird.
I feel like it might seem weird

638
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,600
or unjustified in your own head,
or sometimes I can overthink

639
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:12,840
things before asking this.
What?

640
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,560
But then what I've actually
learned through experience in

641
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,600
many groups is actually, if you
ask for something, generally the

642
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,600
group is quite happy to let that
happen.

643
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,400
And I think people are generally
more accommodating than they can

644
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,400
seem to be.
I want to pick up on something

645
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,360
that you mentioned because
writing a first book, that is no

646
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,520
small feat.
I am excited to read a book, but

647
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,480
I wanted to ask you now for you,
what was the most humbling or

648
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,800
transformative part of that
process for you?

649
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,120
I laugh because it's kind of,
it's obvious in my mind.

650
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,000
I think it's when you think your
first draft is your final

651
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,920
manuscript.
And then of like 20 community

652
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,240
members that I asked for
feedback.

653
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,600
I start with those that are
closest to me, which are the

654
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,280
community members, and then work
further out.

655
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,080
Then I have those that are
interested in being undefinable

656
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,200
but know me less, and then those
that are advocates or relate to

657
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,600
it that don't yet know me, and
then those who are complete

658
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,960
strangers.
So each part of the drafting

659
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,120
processes goes wider and wider.
And that first draft at the end

660
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,560
of February this year when I had
it, I feel so proud of this.

661
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,880
This is so good.
This is not a best work.

662
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,800
And then when I put it out to 20
community members and they gave

663
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,000
me feedback on it, I was like,
oh, you're like, no, fair

664
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,040
enough.
That feedback's good.

665
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,480
Let me see what I can do to
integrate it.

666
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,880
I worked then with Rob
Fitzpatrick for a month with

667
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,880
with him where he went through
and I sort of understood his

668
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,560
like write useful books
methodology where we work

669
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,880
together on how we could use
beta reading to improve a book

670
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,440
and to reduce drop off and to
make it engaging.

671
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,760
And yeah, when I looked at the
book, I was like, oh, OK,

672
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,240
there's definitely more I can do
here.

673
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:52,320
And now I'm on version 4I look
back at V1 and I'm like, oh God,

674
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,520
yeah, this is a way better book
now.

675
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,960
And I can see my initial ideas
there and looking back, you can

676
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,720
see how that the genesis of what
has become now.

677
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:07,640
But by having a central metaphor
and framing and almost spine of

678
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,960
the book that I've got going
through at it now, it goes from

679
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,400
being a collection of essays to
being now like a hearing world

680
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,239
and narrative that brings
someone on a journey of how to

681
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,600
design their life.
That transformation is huge

682
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,320
because it's sometimes the work
that people don't do is they

683
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,520
assume their first draft is the
best and they're like, as an

684
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,880
author or a creator, you're
thinking, wow, yeah, I know what

685
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,000
I'm doing, I'm going to create
this.

686
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,679
But actually by being humble and
by being honest and open and

687
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:38,320
taking the feedback on, I've
created a 10 times better

688
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,719
outcome that I am now deeply
proud of and I believe I'll be

689
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,679
proud of in 10 years time as
well.

690
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,280
Even by working with like a
cover illustrator now to see the

691
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,120
books like front cover and back
cover and being like, wow, this

692
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,639
is so cool.
I could have just used Canvas as

693
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,000
a self published author, but
actually by having someone that

694
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,360
I pay to do it and they
understand what I'm building and

695
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,760
for them to bring back to me and
bring it to life, I'm like, wow,

696
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,920
this is awesome.
And then working also with my

697
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,960
old running coach who happens to
also be an illustrator, which is

698
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,480
really cool.
The metaphor here is about what

699
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,240
I call the undefinable ascent
and it's about climbing a

700
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:16,040
mountain of your own design and
how you how you assemble that.

701
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:17,520
He is the perfect person for
that.

702
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,080
He's a runner and he's a
legislator and we have that

703
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,840
connection.
So now seeing that come together

704
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,080
is really powerful as well.
I'd say the value of feedback

705
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,680
and iteration throughout the
process and how your first draft

706
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,840
is a long way from your final
version.

707
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,200
But yeah, now having the final
version, I think I can

708
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,640
appreciate that.
What's your advice to someone

709
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,320
who wants to write the first
book?

710
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,360
Get in the habit of writing
first.

711
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:49,320
I started with 1000 words a week
back in 2021.

712
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,280
That was my my goals for a year.
That's that's very achievement

713
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:53,880
orientated.
Yeah, I set his goals that would

714
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,400
like achieve them.
Like anything.

715
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,240
I was like learn German that
year and I was like, OK, let me

716
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:01,240
get a German person to teach me
it.

717
00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:03,520
And I got the calls each week
and I was like all about

718
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,360
routine, you know, routine,
habit stacking.

719
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,360
I was on like a 900 day
meditation streak or whatever.

720
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,600
But like by consistently writing
first, I had like 30,000 words

721
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:19,560
by September 21 that I could
then by March 22 turn into a

722
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,480
newsletter.
And I was like, oh, OK, I've got

723
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,080
the 1st 12 to 20 posts kind of
half written already, so I can

724
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,480
then adapt that into a
newsletter.

725
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,080
And then when I had the cadence
to begin pushing out there into

726
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,320
the world, one newsletter, I was
like, OK, now I keep evolving

727
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,320
the topics.
It becomes about something else.

728
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,600
And then now it became about
undefinedable life design.

729
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,320
And that wouldn't have happened
had I not hit publish the first

730
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,000
time around and not consistently
push my work out into the world.

731
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,560
So I'd say if you want to write
a book, write a newsletter

732
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,320
first, because you'll get in the
habit of pushing using content

733
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,920
out regularly, and you'll get in
the habit of realizing that your

734
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,720
first draft isn't your best
version.

735
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,600
And you'll get your ideas on
paper, which is half the work

736
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,400
when it comes to formatting it
in a coherent narrative for

737
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,880
other people to enjoy and find
value from.

738
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,680
What do you think about people
who use AI for content creation?

739
00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:11,800
I think it's, it depends how you
use it.

740
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,880
This is the the challenge in
today's world.

741
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,120
If you're using it to first
draft what you're doing and it's

742
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,720
clear that the AI is just taking
the world's average and pulling

743
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:24,480
it into what you do, That I
believe is a problem.

744
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,320
I think as a thinking partner
and in my case, an editor for

745
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,640
the book, it's great in that I
can take my first draft.

746
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,640
I've written mine myself and I
can say, OK, here's some

747
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:36,880
feedback that I've got from
people.

748
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:41,080
Can you summarize their feedback
into key themes and then suggest

749
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,400
as we go through chapter by
chapter, paragraph by paragraph,

750
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,480
OK, how would you improve it
based on this?

751
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,520
OK, great.
I think that points good.

752
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,520
That point not so good.
So I think as a thinking partner

753
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,440
and an editor, it can be really
valuable and very powerful

754
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,680
because you imagine if I was in
this process and doing it

755
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,320
published, then I would have a
person on the end of a e-mail

756
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,480
who would say to me as my
editor, have you tried this?

757
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,360
Have you tried that?
I would work with other people

758
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,760
in that way.
But I believe that if you rely

759
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,320
on it for creativity and the
first draft and the original

760
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,600
ideas, that's your problem,
because you're then just pulling

761
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,920
ideas from the ether that
already exists from other

762
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,360
people's language and
background, rather than drawing

763
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:22,840
what is your own uniqueness as
well.

764
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,760
So I believe it can be an
amplifier for what you're

765
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,440
already doing.
It'd be really powerful for

766
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,240
that.
Or if you rely on it too

767
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:31,520
heavily, you can just begin to
sound like everyone else.

768
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,360
Charlie, I want to ask you
because I think your experiences

769
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,800
as an athlete and also an
entrepreneur, these are typical

770
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,360
personality types where
perseverance and grit, so

771
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,600
repeated trying on a daily basis
really pays off in the longer

772
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,920
term.
Have you ever given up on

773
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,840
anything in your life that
you've started before?

774
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,040
Giving up depends a lot on the
length of time through which you

775
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,240
view the horizon.
So you could say I gave up my

776
00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:07,560
first business in the sense that
I took it to having a ready to

777
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,600
fat manufacture like product
design and I had prototypes that

778
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,120
worked on a wall that could
receive deliveries.

779
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,680
I had about 203 hundred people
on a new seller who could

780
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,560
potentially be open to buying
the product.

781
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,400
I had a team of three of us who
were building it together and I

782
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,160
was bootstrapping it.
But then I decided do I want to

783
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,360
sell parcel boxes for the next 5
years?

784
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,200
And I asked that question and
realized, or I have to go on a

785
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,240
crowdfunding journey to achieve
that, I'd have to stand as the

786
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,480
parcel box person.
But believe it or not, I'm not

787
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,960
that passionate about parcel
boxes, but I love the team

788
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,560
building.
I love the entrepreneurial

789
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,440
journey there.
And so designed to close that

790
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,400
business, you could label a
failure with a smaller time

791
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,200
horizon, but with a wider one.
I would describe that as a

792
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,920
success in the then unknowingly
started the genesis of the

793
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,600
following month house hack,
which again is a profitable

794
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,040
business that made money the
them by the end of the following

795
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,960
year.
Decided to close that as well,

796
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,120
which again, if you had narrowed
on that horizon, you might say

797
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,720
that that's a failure to like
why didn't you adapt that for a

798
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:13,200
post COVID world and bring it
out from being virtual to being

799
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:14,600
in person?
And I was like I didn't want to

800
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,960
do that.
I feel like it's legacy and what

801
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,080
it stood for was the virtual
hackathons that we built.

802
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,040
And so then being able to
transition into a portfolio

803
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,000
career and figure things out for
a for a year and a bit or so

804
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,720
thereafterwards.
There's many failures within

805
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:35,840
that as well, but I'd say also
you can view the repeated

806
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,480
attempts at achieving times in
sport and not achieving them as

807
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:46,080
failures to.
But overall, I'd say I gave

808
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,960
everything my best shot that I
wanted to.

809
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,320
I think that that's the only
thing you can do.

810
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,800
And yes, you might set metrics
and outcomes and milestones that

811
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,120
are nice numbers to be had, but
if you've given it the best

812
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,040
effort you could to achieve that
thing and you're content with

813
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,040
how you showed up.
When I look at the London

814
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,120
Marathon, this is the key
example of OK, I didn't achieve

815
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,720
a time, but I didn't quit the
race.

816
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:13,720
I still finished the race and
pushed through to the end

817
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:16,080
regardless of the time, even
though I was getting overtaken,

818
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,400
even though my body was
screaming at me, even though the

819
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,240
whole streets were overwhelming
with crowd.

820
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,040
And I feel like they are
failures to some in the I'm not

821
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:30,600
hitting a self intended goal,
but in a lot of ways successes

822
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,840
to me because they teach me a
lesson and they show

823
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,200
perseverance and I think that
they are the bigger qualities

824
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,240
over success and failure.
Your journey is also a journey

825
00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:47,080
of someone who has periodically
reinvented themselves and almost

826
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,000
have different personas and also
different or focuses in their

827
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,280
life over that time.
One question then.

828
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,200
So if we have a listener or
maybe somewhere in my 20s or

829
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,200
30s, they have many interests
and they are trying to reinvent

830
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,720
themselves, but they sometimes
felt scattered in how they're

831
00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:05,000
doing it.
What do you think is 1 simple

832
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,600
shift that they can do this week
to feel more aligned internally?

833
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,000
Beginning the process of
building your purpose, Acropolis

834
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:17,200
as I call it, which the starting
point of reflecting and writing

835
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,760
down what all your many
interests are and then grouping

836
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,440
them into higher level
categories.

837
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:26,720
So when I say being a runner,
being a triathlete, being a

838
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:30,560
cyclist, being a hiker, what am
I really saying here?

839
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,600
Am I saying that I like
endurance sports?

840
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,880
Am I saying I like adventure
sports?

841
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,320
Like when you identify the
category with which your

842
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,240
interests exist in, you give
yourself permission to both grow

843
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,720
but also gain deeper expertise
within that area so you can stay

844
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:49,080
focused while also appreciating
how you have room to evolve.

845
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,000
So when I think about how I took
on triathlon after starting

846
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,800
running, I had 1/3 of the sport
that I'm pretty good at and that

847
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,440
helped a lot with the racing and
it helped a lot with being able

848
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,280
to build on that success.
There are a lot of other parts

849
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,320
of life where there are
synergies and overlaps between

850
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,120
being good at one thing makes
you good at other things.

851
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,520
So say you might be good at an
instrument, is there room to add

852
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,120
another instrument that still
fits within a similar skill set?

853
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,840
This probably is.
If that's something that you

854
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:18,840
want to do.
Understand the categories that

855
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,040
draw to you and labeling them in
the right way can be really

856
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,120
powerful for then allowing
yourself to offer that freedom

857
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:31,600
of exploration and living while
also deepening your proficiency

858
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,120
in certain areas that you can
then commit to for a long enough

859
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,720
time to go deep in.
To then be able to give back to

860
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:41,000
the world and to show up in a
way that you can then recombine

861
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,400
those categories together and
create propositions and offers

862
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,640
as well.
But I said the starting point is

863
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,160
understanding that your
interests fit within bigger

864
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:50,800
categories that offer you room
to grow.

865
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,080
Wonderful.
And I think for anyone who's

866
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,080
listening, I think more, well, I
think a lot more can be learned

867
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,240
either by going along to one of
your gatherings or reading the

868
00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:01,720
book when it does come out.
Charlie, it's been a pleasure to

869
00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:05,000
have you on the podcast today.
Let me end by asking you below

870
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,440
to grow podcast staple, which is
what is one thing that you think

871
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,920
will allow more people to have
better mental health?

872
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,040
I think by understanding and
integrating energy as a equal

873
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,400
motivation to the pursuit of
goals and the pursuit of

874
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,400
thereby, income is something
that I think is really, really

875
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,920
powerful.
It's something that I've

876
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,920
included as a distinct part of
my book in that it has four

877
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,120
parts, and one of the parts is
on the energy toolkit.

878
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:37,080
But I think that that's
fundamental to enjoying life and

879
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,640
to having better mental health
is that you need to be able to

880
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,080
appreciate what gives you energy
and what takes it away and how

881
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,400
you can shape your environments.
You can pace your progress.

882
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,560
You can think pretty clearly
about being intentional with

883
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,360
your energy.
And that for me is is pretty

884
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,560
huge.
And amongst that, if I had to

885
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,040
give a more practical point, is
join communities.

886
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,240
Get around people who share the
same values as you, not that

887
00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:06,800
they have the same labels.
I'm not saying join a run club

888
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,360
because we're all runners here.
I'm saying find communities of

889
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,280
people that have a similar world
perspective and value the same

890
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,960
thing as you do, even if they
come from completely different

891
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:18,760
backgrounds and they're
interested in completely

892
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,880
different things.
Sit with them, share ideas,

893
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,000
relate to them, learn from them.
Because it's the people that you

894
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,040
meet and the ones that you get
to connect with that make this

895
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:30,360
whole journey a lot more
meaningful.

896
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,720
So then for the undefinable
community, what are the core

897
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:36,040
values?
Just testing me.

898
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,360
So respectful curiosity is the
top one.

899
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,440
And where you ask with the
intention to learn and you

900
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,080
listen fully to the answers.
There's emotional bravery where

901
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,880
you're willing to confront
difficult experience that you

902
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,480
have and share them openly.
There's collective

903
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,080
responsibility where you leave
people, places, and projects in

904
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:56,360
a better way than you found
them.

905
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,680
There's purposeful action where
you think in decades, act in

906
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,000
hours, and ship ideas before
they're ready.

907
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,360
And then there's being seriously
silly, which, you know, you do

908
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,520
all these hard things, you think
about all the serious stuff, but

909
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,400
you're also not afraid to laugh
along the way.

910
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,360
Wonderful night to end on.
Thank you very much for coming

911
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,440
on to Lotto Grow.
Thank you Annie for having me.

912
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,800
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for listening.

913
00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:20,760
You excited for the next
episode?

914
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,120
Follow Lotto Grow Podcast on
Instagram and TikTok to keep in

915
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,000
touch with the new
announcements.

916
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,160
That's a wrap for today's
episode of the Lotto Grow

917
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,200
Podcast.
If it resonated with you, leave

918
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,880
a review and hit follow to help
more people to find important

919
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,080
conversations.
Keep growing and see you next

920
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:40,360
time.