From Burnout to Book Launch: Navigating the identity question as a Harper Collins Author

Annie Wenmiao Yu: Welcome to Low to Grow, the podcast transforming life's toughest moments into personal motivation.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: I'm Annie, a Forbes under 30 technology founder, whose entrepreneurship journey ran alongside a mental health awakening.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: In each episode, I sit down with inspiring individuals who have each faced incredible challenges, tackled it head on and emerged stronger on the other side.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Together, we'll explore their stories, unpack the lessons that they have learned, and also understand how they managed to turn challenges into opportunities for personal growth.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Whether you're navigating uncertainty in your personal life, or simply looking for motivation to keep going, this is your space for the honest conversations that you will want to hear.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: If this resonates with you, hit subscribe so you never miss an episode.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: And if you know someone who's struggling, share this with them.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: You might just prompt them to take the first step towards better mental health.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Now, let's dive in.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Today, I'm joined by Daisy Hung, a Diversity Practitioner, Writer and Artist with over two decades of experience advocating for social justice across the legal, non-profit and educational sectors.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Daisy is currently the Head of Equality, Diversity and Inclusion in the University of Oxford's MPLS Division, and her global perspective on race, identity and belonging stands from her own Chinese heritage, a childhood in Canada and the US, and now live with her family in Oxford in the UK.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Daisy's debut non-fiction book, I Am Not a Tourist, Conversations on Being British Chinese, was released just last week.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Daisy, congratulations on your book launch.

 

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Daisy J Hung: Thank you so much.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I have a copy of it here too so you can see what it looks like.

 

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Daisy J Hung: Thank you so much, Annie, for inviting me to this podcast.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: It's a pleasure to have you.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: I love the blue colouring on the cover.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: That's gorgeous.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Daisy, before we start, who would you want to be listening to our conversation today?

 

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Daisy J Hung: I think people who are thinking about a major career transition or perhaps a pivot in their career.

 

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Daisy J Hung: Also, perhaps people who are interested in a lot of different things.

 

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Daisy J Hung: Sounds like a portfolio type career because I've managed to carve out different pathways in my career so far.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: And Daisy, tell us about how your own career started.

 

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Daisy J Hung: It's a bit of a long story, but I'll try to keep it short.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I was born in Canada, moved to the US, moved to California in Cupertino near San Francisco when I was 11 and did most of my schooling, high school, undergraduate and law school in California.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I initially thought I was going to be a scientist and wanted to be a microbiologist.

 

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Daisy J Hung: But when I was in university, I could not do chemistry at all.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And decided that actually I really liked ethnic studies and then started pursuing a degree in ethnic studies and learned about Asian American history and lots of different other civil rights movements and lots of things that I felt really resonated with me in my life experience.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And so decided to do an ethnic studies degree and then went to law school.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I really wanted to be like a civil rights attorney and make a difference using the law.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So that was that was my career path and then did actually survive law school for three years.

 

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Daisy J Hung: In the US, it's a postgraduate degree.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And yeah, really stuck with wanting to do public interest work, working with legal services organizations.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I ended up working with a couple legal services, kind of legal aid organizations focused on supporting Asian and Asian American Pacific Islander communities in San Francisco Bay Area.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I loved it.

 

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Daisy J Hung: That was exactly sort of what I wanted to do.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I didn't get, I guess, distracted by, I don't know, lots of money or other kind of shiny opportunities.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I really wanted to stick with civil rights work.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And so, yeah, that's what I did in the US and then completely burned out by that after a few years.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I moved to the UK about 12 years ago now and have been working in equality, diversity and inclusion in the University of Oxford.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I've been there about 10 years now.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Wow, that really is a portfolio career.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: And now you are an author as well.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: So that's another checkbox to tick.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Just kind of going back to your university days, you know, you started off thinking that you wanted to be a microbiologist and then transitioned to ethnic studies and then actually started work in the legal industry.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: How did your family take it when you were telling them, you know, I want to change my degree from doing something that's quite STEM related to something that's more humanities related?

 

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Daisy J Hung: Their first question was, what job are you going to get with an ethnic studies degree?

 

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Daisy J Hung: And it was kind of hard to answer that.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And at that time, I thought, well, I'm either going to pursue a PhD route or a law school route.

 

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Daisy J Hung: They weren't very happy with the decision to change to an ethnic studies degree.

 

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Daisy J Hung: But I was pretty clear about what I needed.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And microbiology and STEM kind of wasn't what I was into anymore or passionate about anymore.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And luckily, my parents were very supportive and kind of didn't force me to, you know, choose a path that wasn't quite right for me.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I think I was fortunate in that way, because I certainly had other friends whose parents were really, you know, especially if their parents were paying for their degree to really kind of insistent about what they should or should not do.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So, yeah, that was that was my path through university.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: I've had similar stories as well.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: And I think for a lot of my family with immigration in their heritage, I think a lot of times when they moved to a new country, I think the children are normally, you know, steered towards something that's very practical.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: So, you know, science focused with a clear job opportunity or medicine or to do law.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: It's great to hear that your family was so supportive of you and they really nurtured your dreams.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: And I know you mentioned burnout very briefly earlier.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: And this happened, you know, towards the end of your stint in the legal profession.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Could you tell us a bit more about what led up to that burnout?

 

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Daisy J Hung: I've always wanted to work in charities and nonprofits.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I got some great opportunities right out of law school.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I wanted to help people who didn't have much money or couldn't pay for legal services, really wanted to help people in precarious situations.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And so when I was in those organizations, I represented people with housing law issues, with divorce family law issues, with immigration issues.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So primarily my clients tended to be women who were in abusive relationships and trying to get out of those relationships either through divorce and then that may have an impact then on their immigration status if they were, for example, you know, getting their immigration through their marriage or partnership.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And then they needed to then get out of that relationship and then self-petition for immigration status on their own.

 

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Daisy J Hung: Those were very intense crisis situations.

 

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Daisy J Hung: Women and children often fleeing their homes, fleeing abusive partners, and I was there to help with divorces, with temporary restraining orders, with getting immigration relief.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And so it was such important work.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I love the people that I worked with, but it was so draining.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And it was always felt like a crisis situation, a lot of reliance on me.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I was just sort of out of law school with, you know, little real life practical training.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I had lots of internships and was, you know, representing clients as an intern, like on a temporary basis over the summer or in short term kind of stints.

 

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Daisy J Hung: But once I was in a full-time job doing trial work, being a lawyer on a full-time basis, constantly fighting, it felt like I was fighting like a opposing party, the opposing council, my own client sometimes, you know, there was, it always felt very combative.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And for me that, you know, I guess that was hard for me to do on a full-time basis.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And it didn't, I guess, chime with the harmony that I would like in my life.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I guess you could say I shouldn't have chosen the law period.

 

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Daisy J Hung: But I think I really wanted to use the law as a tool for social change and felt that it was really difficult for me to do that in, not only with clients in really difficult situations, but also in precarious organizations because, you know, as a small legal aid service, we were dealing with funding issues as well, dealing with, yeah, just the precariousness of a small organization, trying to do a lot of great stuff, but, you know, having difficulties of their own.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So, yeah, I think after, and really it was after a few years, you know, part of me thinks, oh, I should have tried to stick it out a little longer or maybe go into a different area of law or try a different organization.

 

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Daisy J Hung: But I think for me, the law was also very reactive and I felt like I was always firefighting and that felt very draining too.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I started to see kind of impacts in my own, like my own personality and my own life.

 

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Daisy J Hung: Started being very angry.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I felt angry all the time.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I also felt like I was, because I worked primarily with domestic abuse survivors, I started kind of seeing domestic abuse everywhere in some ways and like kind of trying to identify it or seeing it in my own relationships.

 

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Daisy J Hung: Or, you know, I think it was just sort of invading areas of my personal life, not only my professional life.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So that's when I started recognizing that, okay, something's not quite right.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I'm angry and mad all the time.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I'm not feeling like I'm doing the best job that I can.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I think, as I said, I was just out of law school, kind of lacking in the mentorship and guidance that I think I needed.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I felt like it was time for me to re-evaluate.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: In that period, Daisy, what type of support did you have?

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Did you have any support from your work in a formal structure?

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Or was it more of the informal support that you had for your family and friends?

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: That way, would it help you come to that realization and then make a decision to leave it?

 

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Daisy J Hung: I guess I was somewhat unlucky in that when I started the managing attorney there who I loved working with, he left soon after I joined.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And so that was part of the reason in terms of not having as much guidance and mentorship as I would like.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I guess I didn't get that guidance so much in the workplace.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I had lovely colleagues, but we were all kind of dealing with our own high caseloads and trying to help each other out, but it was limited.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I think I really tried to find that support through other colleagues, so other lawyers.

 

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Daisy J Hung: Luckily in San Francisco, there are a lot of Asian American lawyers.

 

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Daisy J Hung: There's like an Asian American Bar Association, like multiple ones.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And so there was a really nice network and community that I could talk to different people about their careers and about their experiences.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So in that way, I got to speaking with other people who had sort of left the law or pursued careers outside the law.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So that was the point in which I was deciding really, should I like leave the law after such a long time in law school, passing this massive three day bar exam for in California is a three day bar exam.

 

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Daisy J Hung: It's like 50% pass rate.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And you know, like a lot of people and myself included at the time, connected my identity with my profession.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So it was for me a really hard and big decision to make to decide to leave the law or to leave the active practice of law.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I think in terms of support, it was really talking to people, seeing what felt right to me, and then seeing what other kind of opportunities were out there.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: And how long did that process take for you, Daisy, from when you actually decided internally that you wanted to leave, to then actually acting upon it, and then actually having somewhere or something to move to?

 

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Daisy J Hung: That's a good question.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I'm not sure I remember accurately, but I mean, certainly was over a number of months, you know, just at least six months, just first recognizing that I was not in a good place, then thinking about, well, what else should I do?

 

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Daisy J Hung: And thinking about all the various options, and then talking to people, and then finally kind of looking at the job market, like applying to jobs and seeing what else was out there.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And so, yeah, it was over several months, but I think it was even longer, kind of festering in my mind and thinking about it for quite a while.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: What did you move on to do afterwards?

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I applied for a number of jobs.

 

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Daisy J Hung: There was one job that I applied for, which was as a careers advisor for law students, so working in a law school doing careers service work.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I applied for that one, didn't get it, but then got it later on when the job came up again.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I guess that one point is to try again, even if you fail the first time, because at least you never know what it will be like in the future.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I applied for that one, didn't get that one, but there was another job doing diversity work in the Bar Association of San Francisco.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So that's an association of lawyers, like a professional society for lawyers in San Francisco, and they had a diversity program manager job, and that's what got me sort of still within the legal profession, but out of the active practice of law, and then moving into diversity work and how to diversify the legal profession, which then I was able when I moved to the UK to say, look at my transferable skills.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I've done diversity work in the legal profession, and it can translate to STEM subjects too, even though I'm not a scientist.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I wanted to be a long time ago, but not anymore.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: I think it's so interesting, you know, how you kind of like pivoted while I was at university, and when I was so pivoted within your profession after starting your first job as well.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: I'm really happy to hear that you were able to bring those transferable skills from the experiences that you have had into something that's still very, very meaningful for you.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: And for you, Daisy, looking back, if other young professionals who are listening to our conversation, if they are thinking about this law fight for me, should I leave it?

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Should I leave it for a few years and then come back, or should I just leave it and jump into a different profession completely?

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: How would you advise them to structure their thinking about that process?

 

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Daisy J Hung: I think that it's good to try different things.

 

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Daisy J Hung: One point for me is that when I did move out of the law to the Bar Association of San Francisco, I still did pro bono work on the side.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I was still kind of helping the legal services organization that I was involved in before.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I was doing immigration cases on the side to kind of keep my skills up because I didn't want to completely let it go so quickly.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I also was a board member with that organization.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And so sort of I cared about them and I cared about the nonprofit.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And I still wanted to kind of keep connection.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I think that's perhaps one thing in terms of thinking, well, what do you want to keep going?

 

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Daisy J Hung: And what do you want to completely kind of, you know, set aside?

 

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Daisy J Hung: And that not everything is permanent always, right?

 

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Daisy J Hung: I think it's important to think about your career in the long term too.

 

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Daisy J Hung: It's like there's so many things that might come up and opportunities that come up that you might not even ever think about.

 

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Daisy J Hung: It may not be right in that moment.

 

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Daisy J Hung: But in the future, that might be right for you for your future self.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I think for me, I like making lists too.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I have lots of pros and cons lists to things and decisions.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I have lots of lists about various options that I want to take or pursue.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So just for me, writing it all out, even if it's like a mind map kind of kind of approach helps.

 

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Daisy J Hung: Also talking to people and hearing about what worked for them and getting advice from other people was really useful.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: I love the concept of the pros and cons list.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: That's something that I do as well when I feel like it.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: And then sometimes I don't use it.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: And then I think, oh, gosh, I wish I actually write down just a list.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Because it's sometimes just a lot clearer to see things in black and white.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: And you can actually measure how long each list is for them.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Yes.

 

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Daisy J Hung: No, that is key.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: How long did it take you to, I guess, come out from that stage of burnout to then feeling like you are operating at your best again?

 

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Daisy J Hung: Oh, that's a good question.

 

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Daisy J Hung: It was a period of transition because not only was it stepping out of the legal profession in some senses, but then trying a new job completely.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So I would say probably up to a year before I felt sort of good again, you know, and it was up and down.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I still felt like, oh, did I make the biggest mistake possible?

 

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Daisy J Hung: Should I go back into the law?

 

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Daisy J Hung: Should I look for jobs where I was actively practicing again?

 

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Daisy J Hung: I felt kind of a bit like my status had sort of decreased as well because I was still in the Bar Association.

 

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Daisy J Hung: I was working with lawyers all the time, but I was more like, you know, supporting them rather than doing it myself.

 

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Daisy J Hung: So it took me a while to transition my own mind that I wasn't actively practicing anymore and that I was okay with that.

 

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Daisy J Hung: And it took a long time to be okay with that.

 

00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:41.460

Daisy J Hung: And sometimes I still think, oh, well, did I make a big mistake?

 

00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:46.120

Daisy J Hung: But no, because I feel like it was actually a good point for me to transition out.

 

00:18:46.120 --> 00:18:52.280

Daisy J Hung: And then when I moved to the UK, that set me up well to find jobs here.

 

00:18:52.280 --> 00:19:07.140

Daisy J Hung: Because if I had, I feel like if I hadn't transitioned out of the active practice of law before I moved, then it might have been a harder shift for me to then have to retrain in the UK, trying to find opportunities here where the landscape was very different.

 

00:19:07.140 --> 00:19:25.580

Daisy J Hung: So I think, in the end, it probably worked out for the best, but it was sort of a long transition period for me, and in my mind, to kind of think about myself in a different way, and I guess separate a bit of me and my identity from my job and my profession.

 

00:19:25.580 --> 00:19:37.580

Annie Wenmiao Yu: After you arrived in the UK, Daisy, and you're working in Equality, Diversity and Inclusion at the University of Oxford, and of course, at the same time, you are also writing your first book.

 

00:19:37.580 --> 00:19:43.440

Annie Wenmiao Yu: Could you tell us a bit more about what your motivation behind writing that book is?

 

00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:43.820

Daisy J Hung: Yeah.

 

00:19:43.820 --> 00:20:02.000

Daisy J Hung: So I started at the university doing gender equality work, and then have broadened it over the years to encompass all different aspects of EDI, whether it's race, sexual orientation, and disability, like lots of different aspects.

 

00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:07.720

Daisy J Hung: And in terms of the book, it's related to my work, but it is separate from my job.

 

00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:24.260

Daisy J Hung: It really started from a feeling of culture shock, moving from San Francisco, where I was living and working, and then coming to Oxford and thinking, where is the Asian American community equivalent here in Oxford?

 

00:20:24.260 --> 00:20:31.060

Daisy J Hung: Because as I mentioned, I kind of felt really nurtured and supported and included in San Francisco.

 

00:20:31.060 --> 00:20:43.080

Daisy J Hung: There's a huge Chinese American, Asian American population there, and we had hundreds, if not thousands of lawyers, even in our Asian American Bar Association, for example.

 

00:20:43.080 --> 00:20:47.040

Daisy J Hung: So when I got here, I just thought, where is everybody?

 

00:20:47.040 --> 00:20:57.320

Daisy J Hung: And I didn't even understand that Asian itself is kind of considered differently in the UK than the US.

 

00:20:57.320 --> 00:21:04.420

Daisy J Hung: And so I felt like my own sense of identity and belonging was changing and different.

 

00:21:04.420 --> 00:21:07.080

Daisy J Hung: So I just started doing research.

 

00:21:07.080 --> 00:21:19.440

Daisy J Hung: So because of my sort of ethnic studies degree, learning about how different ethnic groups experience things in the US, I just felt like, okay, well, what is the context here in the UK?

 

00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:25.960

Daisy J Hung: What can I learn about British Chinese and East and Southeast Asian communities living in the UK?

 

00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:53.360

Daisy J Hung: From finding out really interesting things like the first recorded Chinese visitor from China to the UK was Shen Fuzong, who came in 1687 and first arrived in London, but then worked in the Bodleian and he knew Latin and Chinese and was able to translate the titles of like 100 Chinese books in the Bodleian collection.

 

00:21:53.360 --> 00:21:55.880

Daisy J Hung: And when I first learned that, I was like, wow, that's amazing.

 

00:21:55.880 --> 00:22:01.800

Daisy J Hung: And I'm in Oxford and like that's such a such an interesting bit of information and connection.

 

00:22:01.800 --> 00:22:11.500

Daisy J Hung: And I remember having gone to a Bodleian library tour and no one, the tour guide didn't say anything about this at all.

 

00:22:11.500 --> 00:22:14.500

Daisy J Hung: And I just felt like, do people know this fact?

 

00:22:14.600 --> 00:22:17.840

Daisy J Hung: So just finding really interesting things along the way.

 

00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:33.220

Daisy J Hung: And when COVID happened and the anti-racism kind of increased exponentially, I felt like this was a really important moment in which to kind of share what I found in the research that I've done.

 

00:22:33.220 --> 00:22:47.460

Daisy J Hung: And I was also reading lots of amazing books about Black British history and with the Black Lives Matter movement and all the conversations that we are having about anti-racism within the university and wider.

 

00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:54.440

Daisy J Hung: I felt like it was important to have East and Southeast Asian voices and perspectives included.

 

00:22:54.440 --> 00:23:00.220

Daisy J Hung: And it took years, so I started writing in 2020.

 

00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:06.680

Daisy J Hung: And now it finally is published last week, so it took a while.

 

00:23:08.100 --> 00:23:08.940

Annie Wenmiao Yu: That's fantastic.

 

00:23:08.940 --> 00:23:26.300

Annie Wenmiao Yu: That's such a lovely story arc of you arriving in a new city, in a new country, experiencing culture shock, and then the actions that you took to, I guess, familiarize yourself more with your existing landscape, but then in the process, learning a lot more about what being Chinese means in the UK.

 

00:23:26.300 --> 00:23:28.020

Annie Wenmiao Yu: So that's fantastic.

 

00:23:28.060 --> 00:23:31.140

Annie Wenmiao Yu: A question for you.

 

00:23:31.140 --> 00:23:37.340

Annie Wenmiao Yu: How is being Asian perceived differently in, say, San Francisco versus Oxford in the UK?

 

00:23:37.340 --> 00:23:42.600

Daisy J Hung: Asian-American as a term is a broad kind of pan-ethnic term.

 

00:23:42.600 --> 00:23:45.960

Daisy J Hung: It's also seen as a political identity as well.

 

00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:55.620

Daisy J Hung: It's a term that came up around the civil rights movement instead of being specific about different ethnicities, whether it's Chinese, Korean, Japanese, et cetera.

 

00:23:56.180 --> 00:24:06.480

Daisy J Hung: You know, it was sort of combined together to have greater political influence as a larger group rather than sort of small ethnic groups.

 

00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:10.820

Daisy J Hung: I think that's the origins of Asian-American as an identity.

 

00:24:10.820 --> 00:24:18.240

Daisy J Hung: When I was saying I moved here, I remember looking at official forms and trying to understand which one I was supposed to tick.

 

00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:31.980

Daisy J Hung: I would automatically tick Asian, but then learn that actually that's conceived of as, you know, Indian, Pakistani, blank Bangladeshi, so more South Asian, which was what we would consider those groups in the US.

 

00:24:31.980 --> 00:24:35.340

Daisy J Hung: I had to then think about how I identified myself.

 

00:24:35.340 --> 00:24:39.640

Daisy J Hung: I just started thinking, okay, if I say Asian-American, that might not make much sense.

 

00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:50.500

Daisy J Hung: So in some ways, I started reclaiming my Chinese identity and started saying, well, Chinese, American, and Canadian, because really now I have three citizenships.

 

00:24:50.500 --> 00:24:53.380

Daisy J Hung: I'm Canadian, American, and British.

 

00:24:53.380 --> 00:24:56.900

Daisy J Hung: So yeah, very long way to describe myself, I guess.

 

00:24:56.900 --> 00:25:04.240

Daisy J Hung: But still, yeah, thinking about what it means to me to be British, because I do have British citizenship.

 

00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:13.420

Daisy J Hung: Still really do feel Asian-American, but the longer I'm here, my children, my two daughters are here, and this is where we're settling.

 

00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:21.780

Daisy J Hung: So trying to think about how my own identity has changed and will continue to change as the years go forward.

 

00:25:21.780 --> 00:25:27.260

Annie Wenmiao Yu: Do you talk to your daughters about their mixed cultural heritage as well?

 

00:25:27.260 --> 00:25:29.120

Daisy J Hung: Yeah, I do.

 

00:25:29.120 --> 00:25:32.600

Daisy J Hung: I think they're still sorting it out, actually.

 

00:25:32.600 --> 00:25:39.720

Daisy J Hung: I'll be interested to see what they decide and how they want to identify.

 

00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:46.180

Daisy J Hung: They actually see themselves, well, at least my older daughter sees herself very much as American.

 

00:25:46.180 --> 00:25:58.660

Daisy J Hung: I think maybe it's from, I don't know, social media and influencers and seeing lots of things on television that's very American-centric or US-centric.

 

00:25:58.660 --> 00:26:06.180

Annie Wenmiao Yu: And Daisy, within your book, you speak to quite a lot of interesting people about the British Chinese experience.

 

00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:11.600

Annie Wenmiao Yu: How did you go about finding them and also what prompted you to write your book in that particular format?

 

00:26:11.600 --> 00:26:24.500

Daisy J Hung: Yeah, I think it's from the lots of different research that I was doing and just came across fascinating stories and really interesting people that I just reached out to.

 

00:26:24.500 --> 00:26:32.060

Daisy J Hung: And they were so generous and really amazing and really wanted to share their experiences and their story.

 

00:26:32.060 --> 00:26:38.120

Daisy J Hung: The highlight of this book is just meeting such amazing people from all over the UK.

 

00:26:38.600 --> 00:26:44.520

Daisy J Hung: And yeah, it certainly helped me feel like I have more of a community now than I'm here.

 

00:26:44.520 --> 00:26:48.660

Daisy J Hung: There's a chapter really focused on media representation, for example.

 

00:26:48.660 --> 00:26:59.400

Daisy J Hung: So I interviewed various actors like David Yip and Lucy Sheen, who were pioneers at the time, and some more recent actors as well.

 

00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:05.720

Daisy J Hung: And in other chapters, depending on the topic, I write about the history of British Chinese food.

 

00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:14.940

Daisy J Hung: And so had interviewed Dan Lee, who was MasterChef from, I think it was Series 14, who was a winner from that series.

 

00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:23.200

Daisy J Hung: It was just great to talk to people from all different sorts of industries and academics and scholars and activists as well.

 

00:27:23.300 --> 00:27:30.620

Daisy J Hung: It's been a highlight to speak to people from all over the UK and from such different experiences.

 

00:27:31.660 --> 00:27:36.980

Annie Wenmiao Yu: Was there anything that surprised you during your experience of writing that book?

 

00:27:36.980 --> 00:27:47.720

Daisy J Hung: What surprised me was in my chapter about community activism and how long-standing some of that activism was.

 

00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:57.680

Daisy J Hung: I spoke with Jaybez Lam, who led the Hackney Chinese Community Services most recently, and that has changed its name to East and South East Asian Community Centre.

 

00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:00.180

Daisy J Hung: But he's been doing this work since the 70s.

 

00:28:00.820 --> 00:28:09.560

Daisy J Hung: He's led a number of different Chinese Community Centres and has been the lead of many different types of campaigns.

 

00:28:09.560 --> 00:28:15.160

Daisy J Hung: So there was the Diamond 4 and the Diamond 5, who were Chinese waiters who were abused by customers.

 

00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:19.060

Daisy J Hung: And unfortunately, they were arrested rather than the customers.

 

00:28:19.060 --> 00:28:25.380

Daisy J Hung: And so there were campaigns around identifying that type of racial abuse and inequality.

 

00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:38.940

Daisy J Hung: To hear him and to see pictures of him that he showed me and to see posters and flyers and examples of activism from British Chinese communities that's been happening for decades.

 

00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:43.180

Daisy J Hung: I think that was surprising, but also reassuring.

 

00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:59.840

Daisy J Hung: And I was so thrilled to see examples of that because it is hard, it was hard for me to find examples of it like from online research, but being able to talk to Jay Bez and kind of learn from him, I think that was surprising and really amazing.

 

00:28:59.840 --> 00:29:07.580

Annie Wenmiao Yu: Daisy, you know, pitching a book, getting it published, that's a very long, lengthy, difficult process for most people.

 

00:29:07.580 --> 00:29:14.240

Annie Wenmiao Yu: Did you find it easy to pitch your idea for your book for the UK audience?

 

00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:16.620

Daisy J Hung: Well, I wouldn't say it was easy.

 

00:29:16.620 --> 00:29:23.540

Daisy J Hung: I think that I've benefited from a number of different schemes for underrepresented writers.

 

00:29:23.540 --> 00:29:33.140

Daisy J Hung: And so there was a Penguin Right Now scheme where I had to write something like 500 words as part of the application to share my idea.

 

00:29:33.140 --> 00:29:42.080

Daisy J Hung: And I was long listed for that program and got to participate in a workshop to learn more about the publishing industry because really I have no experience.

 

00:29:42.080 --> 00:29:48.100

Daisy J Hung: I don't know anybody who's written a book from using the traditional publishing routes.

 

00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:53.300

Daisy J Hung: That scheme helped to kind of demystify some things in the publishing industry.

 

00:29:53.300 --> 00:30:02.620

Daisy J Hung: Then I joined the Harper Collins Author Academy non-fiction stream and had a number of different workshops and courses to take.

 

00:30:02.620 --> 00:30:06.540

Daisy J Hung: So again, I learned from that how to write a proposal.

 

00:30:06.540 --> 00:30:08.700

Daisy J Hung: And I didn't realize you didn't have to write the whole book.

 

00:30:08.700 --> 00:30:17.980

Daisy J Hung: You write a proposal and you write a couple sample chapters or a few sample chapters or material and then you submit that to try to get an agent and then you work with your agent.

 

00:30:18.120 --> 00:30:20.900

Daisy J Hung: To submit it to publishers.

 

00:30:20.900 --> 00:30:23.900

Daisy J Hung: So it is a very long process, but I knew nothing about it.

 

00:30:23.900 --> 00:30:28.700

Daisy J Hung: And without those sorts of schemes, I wouldn't know what I was doing.

 

00:30:28.700 --> 00:30:31.240

Daisy J Hung: So I've learned a lot from those schemes.

 

00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:39.100

Daisy J Hung: And then the third one was Green and Heaton, The Green Door Project, which connected me with my current agent.

 

00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:49.680

Daisy J Hung: Now, like along that path, I think the pitch changed and developed as I was going through each of those opportunities.

 

00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:56.600

Daisy J Hung: But the core has been the same wanting to raise visibility of British Chinese histories and people.

 

00:30:56.600 --> 00:31:04.160

Daisy J Hung: I think what changed the most was me putting more of me and my story and my lived experience in it.

 

00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:05.860

Daisy J Hung: I didn't want it to be about me at all.

 

00:31:05.860 --> 00:31:11.800

Daisy J Hung: I wanted it to be about everybody else and all the interesting research and facts that I found.

 

00:31:11.800 --> 00:31:16.660

Daisy J Hung: But my publishers felt that, well, you need to connect with readers.

 

00:31:16.660 --> 00:31:23.980

Daisy J Hung: You need to kind of share more about you and you and your story can be the thread that pulls things together.

 

00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:29.900

Daisy J Hung: That in some ways was the biggest shift from the initial pitch until the final book.

 

00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:35.240

Annie Wenmiao Yu: And what have you learnt about yourself throughout process of writing your book and getting it to be published?

 

00:31:35.240 --> 00:31:41.020

Daisy J Hung: I've found that I can actually write a book.

 

00:31:41.020 --> 00:31:49.840

Daisy J Hung: I think that is, is, and I found that, you know, I've written sort of small shorter essays and writing for work.

 

00:31:49.840 --> 00:32:04.720

Daisy J Hung: And I've learned a lot about myself as a writer trying to write a substantial book and what my writing process is and how to sustain that.

 

00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:10.140

Daisy J Hung: Because, as I said, I have two kids as well and I'm working the job at the university.

 

00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:16.840

Daisy J Hung: And it was quite a juggle to try to do that with a deadline for the book.

 

00:32:16.840 --> 00:32:26.000

Daisy J Hung: So, yeah, I've learned what works for me as a writer and what I, yeah, what I like to do.

 

00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:36.340

Daisy J Hung: And also really learning from other people in terms of my publisher and my agent and developing as a writer.

 

00:32:36.340 --> 00:32:38.800

Daisy J Hung: I mean, this is my first book and hopefully not my last.

 

00:32:38.800 --> 00:32:41.840

Daisy J Hung: But, you know, it's been a learning process along the way.

 

00:32:41.840 --> 00:32:44.960

Daisy J Hung: There's been lots of rejection along the way too.

 

00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:54.720

Daisy J Hung: So, yeah, I'm really kind of fortunate that I've gotten to this stage now that it's actually in paper and that people can actually read it.

 

00:32:54.720 --> 00:33:06.680

Daisy J Hung: So that's another new interesting development, hearing about other people's reactions to the book and their own experiences and their own connections with it.

 

00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:12.700

Annie Wenmiao Yu: What's one unexpected thing that having your readers read the book actually brought out to light for you?

 

00:33:14.140 --> 00:33:17.700

Daisy J Hung: I think it's still early days because it just came out last week.

 

00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:22.920

Daisy J Hung: But a couple of my colleagues have read it already in like two days, which is shocking to me.

 

00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:28.120

Daisy J Hung: I think the most interesting or amusing thing was watching my mother read it.

 

00:33:28.120 --> 00:33:33.280

Daisy J Hung: So my mother came from California for the book launch last week, and she started to read my book.

 

00:33:33.280 --> 00:33:38.900

Daisy J Hung: And there have been various points in which she just started laughing out loud.

 

00:33:38.900 --> 00:33:41.820

Daisy J Hung: And I just thought, what are you laughing about?

 

00:33:41.900 --> 00:33:43.080

Daisy J Hung: Like, what is so funny?

 

00:33:43.080 --> 00:33:45.980

Daisy J Hung: It's actually not meant to be that funny.

 

00:33:45.980 --> 00:33:54.900

Daisy J Hung: The most recent thing that she laughed about was reading about the Chinese zodiac story, which she said she had never even really learnt about.

 

00:33:54.900 --> 00:33:58.460

Daisy J Hung: That was just really amusing and funny to me.

 

00:33:58.460 --> 00:34:05.400

Daisy J Hung: And just seeing her own reaction to things in my book has been great.

 

00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:09.400

Annie Wenmiao Yu: And Daisy, what would your advice be to someone who's listening to this podcast?

 

00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:14.480

Annie Wenmiao Yu: You know, might be working a full-time job like yourself, but they've always wanted to write a book.

 

00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:17.620

Annie Wenmiao Yu: What would be three practical tips that you could give them?

 

00:34:17.620 --> 00:34:23.560

Daisy J Hung: Yeah, I think kind of figuring out what works best for you.

 

00:34:23.560 --> 00:34:30.580

Daisy J Hung: So I spent a lot of late nights writing and also some early mornings.

 

00:34:30.720 --> 00:34:38.540

Daisy J Hung: I'm a night owl, usually, and I initially thought that I would be doing most of my writing late night.

 

00:34:38.540 --> 00:34:44.200

Daisy J Hung: But actually, that was, I found that that wasn't sort of the most productive time for me.

 

00:34:44.200 --> 00:34:52.400

Daisy J Hung: I ended up shifting kind of to write more early morning when I could or over lunch or whatever sort of small breaks that I could.

 

00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:59.560

Daisy J Hung: If the kids were watching television or something, then I would try to get as much time that I could to write on my own.

 

00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:11.040

Daisy J Hung: But everyone is going to be different in kind of when you feel most productive or, you know, most effective in your writing.

 

00:35:11.040 --> 00:35:14.600

Daisy J Hung: So, and really, actually, I work four days a week.

 

00:35:14.600 --> 00:35:17.080

Daisy J Hung: So I'm not full time, I'm 80% FTE.

 

00:35:17.080 --> 00:35:27.860

Daisy J Hung: And I think that makes a big difference because I could spend at least one weekday focused on the book and on research for the book.

 

00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:40.340

Daisy J Hung: At one point when I was getting close to the deadline and was really struggling to meet it, my lie manager was happy for me to take a period of two months off.

 

00:35:40.340 --> 00:35:44.560

Daisy J Hung: Paid, I kind of mixed it up with some holiday.

 

00:35:44.560 --> 00:35:51.440

Daisy J Hung: But I did take unpaid leave also from my current job in order to be able to finish it.

 

00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:54.260

Daisy J Hung: So, you know, not everybody is going to be able to do that.

 

00:35:54.740 --> 00:36:05.260

Daisy J Hung: I think finding kind of what will work best in your situation and then trying to be flexible because you never know what might happen.

 

00:36:05.260 --> 00:36:11.120

Annie Wenmiao Yu: On your writing desk, what are the things that someone will see?

 

00:36:11.120 --> 00:36:17.640

Daisy J Hung: Lots of academic books, lots of different references.

 

00:36:17.640 --> 00:36:22.760

Daisy J Hung: I'm always putting little tabs or like post-it notes all over the place.

 

00:36:22.900 --> 00:36:27.420

Daisy J Hung: So yeah, it will be stacks of books and my laptop pretty much.

 

00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:27.860

Annie Wenmiao Yu: Fantastic.

 

00:36:27.860 --> 00:36:30.380

Annie Wenmiao Yu: Well, thank you for sharing that, Daisy.

 

00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:39.800

Annie Wenmiao Yu: And you know, just to kind of loop back and connect the book that you have written with how you started at university as a microbiologist who then did ethnic studies.

 

00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:51.220

Annie Wenmiao Yu: If anyone who is listening to this podcast, they might have an immigrant experience or they might be expats or they might be second or third generation kids in the UK.

 

00:36:52.700 --> 00:37:00.000

Annie Wenmiao Yu: What is one piece of advice that you would give to someone who is struggling with their own sense of identity or belonging?

 

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:05.760

Daisy J Hung: My one piece of advice, it's hard to just think of one, but is to reach out to other people.

 

00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.560

Daisy J Hung: And that's what I've done with the book.

 

00:37:08.560 --> 00:37:11.520

Daisy J Hung: And you know, there are groups out there.

 

00:37:11.520 --> 00:37:20.780

Daisy J Hung: And so this is one thing that I felt that when I was in Oxford, I felt all the British Chinese or East and Southeast Asian groups or activity are in London.

 

00:37:20.780 --> 00:37:25.840

Daisy J Hung: And oh, that's kind of too far away from me in order to make use of.

 

00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:31.680

Daisy J Hung: But I think really, you know, social media now is so widely used.

 

00:37:31.680 --> 00:37:39.520

Daisy J Hung: And people I found have been really generous in terms of responding to me if I've made a connection.

 

00:37:39.520 --> 00:37:42.800

Daisy J Hung: So I guess not to be afraid to reach out to other people.

 

00:37:43.140 --> 00:37:51.100

Daisy J Hung: Happy for people to reach out to me if you want to have a chat or a conversation or, you know, want to talk about anything.

 

00:37:51.100 --> 00:38:29.740

Daisy J Hung: Because thinking about your own identity can be an individual solitary exercise, but also it can be one that connects you with other people and having those conversations and informing your own thoughts with other people's lived experience can be really powerful and so whether it's other people of East and South East Asian identities or other, you know, other racially marginalized groups as well, people are going to think about their identity in different ways and have different and have different feelings of inclusion or exclusion or belonging.

 

00:38:29.780 --> 00:38:32.640

Daisy J Hung: And so there's it's so it's so varied.

 

00:38:32.640 --> 00:38:48.200

Daisy J Hung: And I think that's one of the points of the book too, is that we need to not make assumptions about people based on their ethnic identity, that Chinese communities are so diverse and there are mixed heritage.

 

00:38:48.200 --> 00:38:54.020

Daisy J Hung: There's, you know, lots of different experiences, some positive and some negative.

 

00:38:54.020 --> 00:38:56.780

Daisy J Hung: I try to capture that as much as possible.

 

00:38:56.780 --> 00:39:05.080

Daisy J Hung: But yeah, identity and belonging are things that I think are universal themes for really everyone to be thinking about.

 

00:39:05.080 --> 00:39:11.460

Daisy J Hung: And this is just, I guess, one book to add to that conversation.

 

00:39:11.460 --> 00:39:14.860

Annie Wenmiao Yu: One book for now, and I'm sure we'll keep our eyes open to your next one.

 

00:39:14.860 --> 00:39:17.140

Annie Wenmiao Yu: Thank you for sharing your experiences, Daisy.

 

00:39:17.140 --> 00:39:26.880

Annie Wenmiao Yu: Before we wrap up, I'm going to ask you our podcast staple question, which is what do you think will enable more people to have better mental health?

 

00:39:27.040 --> 00:39:36.340

Daisy J Hung: It's being willing to have conversations and asking for help, recognizing when you need that help and what form that help might take.

 

00:39:36.340 --> 00:39:39.600

Daisy J Hung: And it could just be conversations with friends.

 

00:39:39.600 --> 00:39:56.200

Daisy J Hung: It could be more professional help, but just being able and ready to seek that support and to have those conversations, I think, is most important because everybody's going to have a sort of different and individual needs.

 

00:39:56.200 --> 00:40:11.660

Daisy J Hung: And you may be on the path of trying to understand what it is that you need personally, and that's going to be different, and that's going to probably be a journey in itself that might change from today or next week or next month.

 

00:40:11.660 --> 00:40:21.580

Daisy J Hung: But to have continual conversations and not be afraid to ask for help, because we all need help at some point, whether it's with careers or personal issues.

 

00:40:21.940 --> 00:40:29.400

Daisy J Hung: So I think I've had to learn that too, how to ask for help, and I've had a lot of help with the book, for example.

 

00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:37.500

Daisy J Hung: I've had a lot of help in career advice throughout my career, not being afraid to do that, because it's not a sign of weakness.

 

00:40:37.500 --> 00:40:48.640

Annie Wenmiao Yu: Thank you so much for taking the time to share with us about your early career experiences burning out, pivot, and now the new book that you have launched.

 

00:40:48.640 --> 00:40:57.360

Annie Wenmiao Yu: It was such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today, Daisy, and I really encourage anyone who has it already to pick up a copy of her latest book.

 

00:40:57.360 --> 00:40:58.540

Daisy J Hung: Thank you so much, Annie.

 

00:40:58.540 --> 00:41:00.520

Daisy J Hung: It was such a great conversation.

 

00:41:00.520 --> 00:41:02.960

Daisy J Hung: I'm really happy to be here.

 

00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.260

Annie Wenmiao Yu: That's a wrap for this episode of Low to Grow.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: If you learned something today, help more people to find this conversation by hitting the subscribe button and leaving a review.

 

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Annie Wenmiao Yu: Keep growing and until next time.