How One Founder Turned Suicidal Thoughts into a £Multi-Million Company

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Annie WM Yu: Who do you think will benefit the most from our conversation today?

 

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Asim Amin: I think people who are perhaps starting out on their entrepreneurial journey.

 

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Asim Amin: It's a very lonely place to be in.

 

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Annie WM Yu: Welcome to Low to Grow, the podcast transforming life's toughest moments into opportunity for growth.

 

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Annie WM Yu: I'm Annie, a Forbes under 30 technology founder, whose entrepreneurship journey ran parallel to a mental health awakening.

 

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Annie WM Yu: In every episode, I sit down with inspiring individuals and delve into how they manage to turn their personal or professional challenges into opportunities for growth.

 

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Annie WM Yu: If you're facing uncertainty in your life, feeling down or simply need a kick of inspiration to keep moving forward, this is your space for the honest and uplifting conversations that you will want to hear.

 

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Annie WM Yu: Hit follow so you never miss an episode and let's dive in.

 

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Annie WM Yu: Today's guest is Asim Amin, someone who is solving a problem of mental health into a mission-driven business.

 

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Annie WM Yu: After seeing the impact of mental health struggles within his own family, Asim knew that something needed to change.

 

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Annie WM Yu: And that change for him began with how we approach mental well-being in the workplace.

 

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Annie WM Yu: What started as a personal journey led to the founding of Plumm, a platform that's grown from being a mental health service platform into a full-scale HR solution, which has mental well-being and mental health at its core.

 

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Annie WM Yu: But Asim's personal story isn't just about building a business.

 

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Annie WM Yu: It's about resilience, navigating setbacks, and redefining what success really means.

 

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Annie WM Yu: He's also the host of the immigrant founders pod, which is how we both first met.

 

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Annie WM Yu: And on this episode of the Low to Grow podcast, we're going to dive deeper into Asim's own story, purpose-led growth, and also what he thinks about the future of workplace well-being.

 

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Annie WM Yu: Asim, welcome to the Low to Grow podcast.

 

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Asim Amin: Thank you so much for having me, Annie.

 

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Asim Amin: And thank you so much for the kind intro.

 

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Annie WM Yu: I feel excited to be having this conversation with you.

 

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Annie WM Yu: Let me start by asking you, who do you think will benefit the most from our conversation today?

 

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Asim Amin: I think people who are perhaps starting out on their entrepreneurial journey.

 

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Asim Amin: It's a very lonely place to be in.

 

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Asim Amin: And hopefully I can add value to them after this conversation.

 

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Asim Amin: And perhaps maybe a little bit more directly related to me, if people are moving countries, migrating to different countries and really starting from scratch, from that perspective as well.

 

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Asim Amin: So hopefully people who are in that stage of their life as well.

 

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Annie WM Yu: Okay, fantastic.

 

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Annie WM Yu: Let's start at the beginning then.

 

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Annie WM Yu: You've mentioned how mental health struggles within your own family was the catalyst for the reason why you found a plum.

 

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Annie WM Yu: Could you share a bit more about how that happened and also how it shaped your path forward?

 

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Asim Amin: Yeah, absolutely.

 

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Asim Amin: I mean, my family and I've also had my own fair share of mental ill health.

 

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Asim Amin: It started off for my mom and the reason being, I grew up in a very disruptive household.

 

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Asim Amin: My mom and dad separated a long time ago, but they had a lot of issues for many, many years before they separated.

 

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Asim Amin: Because of that, my mom suffered from severe depression.

 

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Asim Amin: Fortunately, she's a completely different person now.

 

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Asim Amin: She started seeking therapy, she didn't stop there, she became a therapist herself.

 

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Asim Amin: Then as I mentioned, I had my own fair share of mental ill health as well.

 

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Asim Amin: I've been in business for as long as I can remember.

 

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Asim Amin: My first business was when I was 17.

 

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Asim Amin: And at one point, I was heavily invested, both emotionally and financially in the property sector.

 

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Asim Amin: Invested a lot of money, I lost a lot of money.

 

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Asim Amin: And of the back of that, I really went into a dark place.

 

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Asim Amin: I've had suicidal thoughts, I've had thoughts to an extent where three days in a row, I was standing on the edge of my balcony and really contemplating my fault and really vividly picturing my fault.

 

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Asim Amin: I'm scared of heights.

 

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Asim Amin: And I think that was one of the first reasons I actually couldn't take that action, because I was really picturing how the fall would be.

 

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Asim Amin: Will I die midway?

 

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Asim Amin: Will I land head first?

 

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Asim Amin: And how would my body look like?

 

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Asim Amin: Will I die?

 

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Asim Amin: Not die?

 

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Asim Amin: You know, it was just, it was just too scary.

 

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Asim Amin: And I was not able to do that.

 

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Asim Amin: And on the third day, I really came in to a conclusion where either I move ahead with that action, or I change my life.

 

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Asim Amin: I believe I was also fortunate that I had my mom's experience, because I did see my mom changing her life and my mom becoming a complete different person.

 

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Asim Amin: And because she became a therapist and she moved into the space, I also started seeing the transition or the transformation she had on her clients, who also now have become lifelong family friends.

 

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Asim Amin: How she had changed, how her clients had changed.

 

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Asim Amin: So I believe that was a positive sign to me, where if I took care of my mental health, if I also seeked help, I could also transition and move into a different headspace, which fortunately I did.

 

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Asim Amin: That tremendously has shaped the way I not only operate business, but really how I operate my life.

 

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Asim Amin: And when I came out of that headspace, and that is obviously the catalyst to Plumm as well, when I came out of the headspace, I really wanted to get into a line of business.

 

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Asim Amin: When I only motivated, wouldn't just be the top line or the bottom line of the business.

 

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Asim Amin: Something that would be bigger than me, bigger than my mom even.

 

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Asim Amin: And that's when I started exploring mental health and health space.

 

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Annie WM Yu: Well, thank you for sharing that really personal experience, Asim.

 

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Annie WM Yu: I think it's really brave of you to share that so vocally.

 

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Annie WM Yu: And from the way that you shared it, you sound so calm.

 

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Annie WM Yu: I can tell you that it's something that you have made peace with to a certain extent yourself.

 

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Annie WM Yu: And it's something that still really energizes and motivates you.

 

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Annie WM Yu: I find that really inspiring.

 

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Annie WM Yu: I love to delve a little bit deeper into the circumstances that led up to you standing at your balcony for those three days.

 

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Annie WM Yu: What led up to that?

 

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Annie WM Yu: How long were you struggling before you actually had those suicidal thoughts on your balcony?

 

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Asim Amin: For quite some time, to be honest.

 

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Asim Amin: And I've never had those kinds of thoughts.

 

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Asim Amin: It was just that I was just too desperate and I just didn't see a way out.

 

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Asim Amin: And I would say about a year, more or less, it was just problems after problems, losing money and then coming to a place where I wasn't just in zero, but I was in minus.

 

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Asim Amin: Like I owed money.

 

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Asim Amin: And that's not a...

 

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Asim Amin: I mean, being zero is a bad position.

 

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Asim Amin: Being minus is a worse position.

 

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Asim Amin: So I just didn't see a way out.

 

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Asim Amin: And really it came to a place where...

 

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Asim Amin: I mean, that pressure just got too much to me.

 

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Asim Amin: A few people around me knew, not that I was having these suicidal thoughts, but a few people around me knew the situation that I was in, but no one could help me.

 

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Asim Amin: And I was also in a place where I just needed help.

 

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Asim Amin: I thought I needed help from a financial perspective.

 

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Asim Amin: So the help that I was trying to seek was, can you lend me money?

 

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Asim Amin: Can you help me get out of this situation?

 

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Asim Amin: But the help that I really needed was from a mental health perspective.

 

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Asim Amin: Like I was really, I didn't know how to regulate my emotions.

 

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Asim Amin: Like I didn't know how to have a clear head to actually try and find a solution out of the problem.

 

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Asim Amin: Like I was just so deep into it that I was just blind.

 

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Asim Amin: I couldn't see what the hell was happening.

 

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Asim Amin: It was a long time until finally I took, well, I was trying to take a decision where, okay, this is just too much pressure, so much pressure that I was just feeling debilitated.

 

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Asim Amin: Like I couldn't move, I couldn't function, and I couldn't, I didn't want to eat.

 

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Asim Amin: It was just horrible, horrible stage, and I just locked myself.

 

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Asim Amin: I had a partner at that time, but I just isolated myself as well from any human being possible.

 

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Asim Amin: I just wanted to just disappear, and that just felt the right thing to do at that point.

 

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Annie WM Yu: That makes sense.

 

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Annie WM Yu: I'm also quite curious because you mentioned that you've had your own businesses since you were 17.

 

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Annie WM Yu: The business that's related to property that led you to this really dark state, which number was that in your history of businesses that you have been involved with?

 

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Asim Amin: Good question.

 

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Asim Amin: I actually need to think about it now, but I think it was number...

 

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Asim Amin: I think number five.

 

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Asim Amin: Number five, business number five.

 

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Asim Amin: But it was the longest business stint that I've had.

 

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Asim Amin: I was in the property sector for about 12 years.

 

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Asim Amin: Every business I've been in has been, I think the maximum after that was about four and a half, five years.

 

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Asim Amin: But this was the longest because I was in Dubai at that point of time.

 

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Asim Amin: And when I got into the property sector, I don't know if you've heard, but Dubai property market on the Palm Islands and all that.

 

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Asim Amin: So it was a really booming type of industry as well.

 

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Asim Amin: So, I mean, there was tremendous growth, tremendous upside, very successful business.

 

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Asim Amin: But yeah, so it was the longest time as well, but it was business number five.

 

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Annie WM Yu: I think that's quite an incredible experience to have under your belt and also to have come out from it.

 

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Annie WM Yu: So from starting this fifth business, getting to this low point, how did you come out of it?

 

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Annie WM Yu: Was there anyone around you who was able to offer you support?

 

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Annie WM Yu: Did you reach out to anyone to speak to?

 

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Asim Amin: Yeah, therapy.

 

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Asim Amin: I mean, although my mom was a therapist, the last thing I wanted to do was speak to my mom and get therapy sessions from her.

 

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Asim Amin: But because I knew the value of therapy, I started getting myself help.

 

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Asim Amin: I mean, it's also interesting, you know, I think the biggest challenge when it comes to mental health or getting support is not the support itself.

 

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Asim Amin: It's you first acknowledging that there is a problem and then taking that first step.

 

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Asim Amin: As soon as you take that first step, which, I mean, don't get me wrong, but it's the hardest to, you know, asking for help, that's really the hardest.

 

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Asim Amin: But as soon as you take that first step, it's really interesting.

 

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Asim Amin: There's just so much support out there, especially, I mean, now in the UK, like it's just crazy how much support is out there.

 

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Asim Amin: But for me, it was, I knew the importance of therapy.

 

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Asim Amin: And I'm like, okay, although I'm always a therapist, I've never tried therapy, but I was just so desperate.

 

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Asim Amin: I just wanted anybody to save me somehow or help me.

 

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Asim Amin: So I started seeking therapy, but off the back of it, you know, it's completely wrong for you to think also that a therapist or a coach, whoever you're seeking support from, can actually help you out of that situation.

 

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Asim Amin: It's only you who needs to do the work and come out of that situation.

 

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Asim Amin: So that was also a learning curve once I got into therapy.

 

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Asim Amin: But actively, what it allowed me to do was regulate my emotions and start thinking rationally, like really break down my problem so I could focus on the solution.

 

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Asim Amin: And then once I started focusing on the solution, you know, little by little, I was able to come out of that.

 

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Annie WM Yu: What was your experience of finding that therapist who helped you?

 

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Asim Amin: It wasn't a good one.

 

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Asim Amin: It was really painstaking and this is pre-COVID.

 

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Asim Amin: It wasn't convenient.

 

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Asim Amin: We couldn't do any virtual therapy sessions.

 

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Asim Amin: I actually had to commute to go and see a therapist.

 

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Asim Amin: It was quite expensive when I already don't have money.

 

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Asim Amin: So it was quite challenging.

 

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Asim Amin: But like I said, I mean, I was just too desperate.

 

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Asim Amin: I needed help as bad as I needed to breathe air.

 

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Asim Amin: So I'm just like, okay, I have to do what I had to do.

 

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Asim Amin: It was tough because I was just asking around, Google search, asking around, just hoping that the first therapist I meet is the one because I don't have money or the time or the space to try and do my R&D and try and speak to 15 different therapists until I finally get that one that I really resonate with.

 

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Asim Amin: But I believe I was fortunate.

 

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Asim Amin: I was, you know, I spoke to a really great therapist and we started doing a few therapy sessions.

 

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Asim Amin: But immediately, because I could realign my emotions and focus on what needs to be done, I started doing a lot of work, internal work by myself.

 

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Asim Amin: So a lot of self-help type of, you know, like resources, courses.

 

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Asim Amin: Like I just did a lot.

 

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Asim Amin: I started taking care of my physical health as well.

 

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Asim Amin: Started doing a lot of yoga.

 

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Asim Amin: I started eating right.

 

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Asim Amin: There was a lot of alignment that I brought into my life.

 

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Asim Amin: The therapy session was a catalyst to every, all the other changes fundamentally that I did in my life.

 

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Asim Amin: I was drinking a lot at that point in time.

 

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Asim Amin: I wasn't sleeping well.

 

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Asim Amin: I was eating shit every single day.

 

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Asim Amin: So all that got fixed.

 

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Asim Amin: So the foundation work got fixed because of the therapy session.

 

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Asim Amin: But yeah, the experience in actually finding the therapist was difficult.

 

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Asim Amin: I believe I also was able to resonate and move really quickly forward with the therapist.

 

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Asim Amin: Simply A, because I was desperate, but B, because I also trusted in the process of therapy because of my mother's experience.

 

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Asim Amin: And I believe not everyone is in my space because it's very difficult.

 

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Asim Amin: You don't know anybody taking therapy and you don't trust the process.

 

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Asim Amin: So it also then becomes hard.

 

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Asim Amin: I think for me, it also worked because I knew it would work, if that makes sense.

 

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Asim Amin: So I kind of made it work for me.

 

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Annie WM Yu: Yep, that makes absolute sense.

 

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Annie WM Yu: I actually have a question based on that, because I know that in different cultures and I was in different countries, the general attitude on those understanding of therapy and mental health can be quite different.

 

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Annie WM Yu: For you at that time, what was the social awareness of mental health in Dubai?

 

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Asim Amin: Wow, it was almost nothing.

 

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Asim Amin: It was almost nil.

 

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Asim Amin: And on top of that, so there's no social awareness, but on top of that, if you were to talk about therapy or mental health, whatever, what was also shunned upon, it's also bad.

 

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Asim Amin: And on top of that, me being a male, so me being a guy is like, what the hell is wrong with you?

 

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Asim Amin: Like you're a man, like, you know, boys don't cry and you know, you have to man up, you know, like be a man.

 

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Asim Amin: I mean, I'm ethically Indian.

 

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Asim Amin: So coming from an Indian culture and being in the Middle East, just like taboo on top of taboo, like it was bad.

 

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Asim Amin: In fact, it was so bad that all my life, my friends and my peers never knew that my mom was a therapist.

 

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Asim Amin: I was actually very ashamed that my mom was a therapist.

 

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Asim Amin: I would never tell any of my friends that my mom was a therapist because like, shit, like, you know, I don't want people to know that we do therapy sessions.

 

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Asim Amin: Like, what the hell is that?

 

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Asim Amin: It was extremely difficult.

 

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Asim Amin: Like I said, I mean, I believe I was too fortunate that only because my mother was a therapist, and she's my mother, like you trust your mother 100%, you know, only because of that did I say, okay, I know it's going to work, and I'm going to move forward with it.

 

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Asim Amin: And if it wasn't the case, I mean, I know a lot of people, even now in the Middle East, and who are ethnic background or Arabic background, they would never, even today, they would never go into therapy session.

 

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Asim Amin: It's impossible.

 

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Asim Amin: So, yeah, it's a completely different world here.

 

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Asim Amin: Things are changing, though.

 

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Asim Amin: Slight caveat, I think the world after COVID is changing.

 

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Asim Amin: But I think, I mean, that's even in the Western world.

 

00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:29.800

Asim Amin: There's still, there is still stigma, as we all know.

 

00:14:29.800 --> 00:14:33.780

Asim Amin: There is still taboo around the mental health subject, although we've come a long way.

 

00:14:33.780 --> 00:14:36.160

Asim Amin: But yeah, things definitely are changing.

 

00:14:36.160 --> 00:14:43.440

Asim Amin: But at that time, because this was a while ago, since 2016, at that time, wow, it was night and day.

 

00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:44.320

Annie WM Yu: No, definitely.

 

00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.880

Annie WM Yu: And I can absolutely relate to what you were saying with having an Indian background.

 

00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:57.420

Annie WM Yu: For me, I'm from a Chinese heritage, and I think my own mental health awareness journey is something that I had to go through myself and also then learn how to communicate that with my family.

 

00:14:57.420 --> 00:14:59.720

Annie WM Yu: And luckily, they're all very open-minded.

 

00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:04.300

Annie WM Yu: And I guess living in the UK, it helps to have that general wider societal acceptance as well.

 

00:15:04.300 --> 00:15:18.060

Annie WM Yu: I can definitely imagine how difficult and almost isolating it could feel as someone who is having therapy in a place like Dubai, as a male, someone with Indian heritage, in a time where mental health isn't really accepted.

 

00:15:18.060 --> 00:15:20.520

Annie WM Yu: So kudos to you for going through that.

 

00:15:20.520 --> 00:15:24.500

Annie WM Yu: When you were having therapy, did you tell anyone around you about it?

 

00:15:24.500 --> 00:15:26.020

Annie WM Yu: Like, did your colleagues know?

 

00:15:26.020 --> 00:15:28.820

Annie WM Yu: Did your family or partner know?

 

00:15:28.820 --> 00:15:29.980

Asim Amin: Oh my god, no.

 

00:15:30.420 --> 00:15:33.000

Asim Amin: I was too ashamed that I was going to therapy.

 

00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:34.720

Asim Amin: Even my mother did not know.

 

00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:35.760

Asim Amin: I didn't even tell my mother.

 

00:15:35.760 --> 00:15:39.500

Asim Amin: And my mother, she would encourage and she would be very proud of me.

 

00:15:39.500 --> 00:15:41.740

Asim Amin: Now she knows, but at that time, I didn't tell her.

 

00:15:41.980 --> 00:15:44.340

Asim Amin: Again, it was from a place of shame.

 

00:15:44.340 --> 00:15:47.660

Asim Amin: Interestingly enough, I was exposed to therapy because of her.

 

00:15:47.660 --> 00:15:49.640

Asim Amin: I got into therapy because of her.

 

00:15:49.640 --> 00:15:51.080

Asim Amin: I was obviously proud.

 

00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:53.480

Asim Amin: And there was a lot of validation that she's changed her life.

 

00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.760

Asim Amin: So many people's lives are also changing in front of my eyes.

 

00:15:56.760 --> 00:16:02.460

Asim Amin: But I was just so ashamed that I was going through this, that I could not even tell my mother that I'm going through this because I'm a man.

 

00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:07.920

Asim Amin: Like, you know, I'm an Indian man living in the Arab world, so we don't talk about this.

 

00:16:07.920 --> 00:16:09.840

Asim Amin: Even if it's to another therapist who's my mother.

 

00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.560

Asim Amin: So, like, no one knew.

 

00:16:11.560 --> 00:16:14.060

Asim Amin: My partner didn't know, my friends, friends.

 

00:16:14.060 --> 00:16:17.180

Asim Amin: I mean, if my mother didn't know, nobody knew, you know.

 

00:16:17.180 --> 00:16:20.480

Asim Amin: Because if anybody could understand that, it would be my mother.

 

00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:22.060

Asim Amin: But I was just too ashamed.

 

00:16:22.060 --> 00:16:23.420

Asim Amin: Today, obviously, things are different.

 

00:16:23.420 --> 00:16:26.740

Asim Amin: Like, I vocalized it, like, I mean, this has become my strength.

 

00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:33.980

Asim Amin: But no, I mean, I would die of shame if anybody knew.

 

00:16:33.980 --> 00:16:40.100

Annie WM Yu: Asim, how did your mother react when she first found out about you having therapy at that time?

 

00:16:40.100 --> 00:16:42.980

Asim Amin: I actually told her how many years later.

 

00:16:42.980 --> 00:16:48.860

Asim Amin: I told her about maybe four years later.

 

00:16:48.860 --> 00:16:55.880

Asim Amin: And yeah, it was quite a emotional yet bonding moment for me and her.

 

00:16:57.160 --> 00:16:59.140

Asim Amin: So there are two things I told her.

 

00:16:59.140 --> 00:17:05.180

Asim Amin: So the conversation started off from me telling her that I had suicidal thoughts.

 

00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.460

Asim Amin: And she wasn't aware, it's like, what?

 

00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:11.660

Asim Amin: And like, you know, the pain and the trauma and all that.

 

00:17:11.660 --> 00:17:14.440

Asim Amin: So that got her really emotional.

 

00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:17.000

Asim Amin: And that's when I opened up that, okay.

 

00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:19.880

Asim Amin: And then what I did was then I got into therapy.

 

00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:21.360

Asim Amin: And so thanks to you.

 

00:17:21.360 --> 00:17:24.080

Asim Amin: If it wasn't for you, I mean, I wouldn't even come out of it.

 

00:17:24.080 --> 00:17:29.820

Asim Amin: And if I didn't get into therapy and start that journey, I don't know if I would be here or not.

 

00:17:30.080 --> 00:17:33.400

Asim Amin: It was a quite emotional moment for the both of us.

 

00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:40.860

Asim Amin: But I believe that it was also very beautiful and it helped us bond from, I don't know, many different perspectives.

 

00:17:40.900 --> 00:17:41.480

Annie WM Yu: Oh, for sure.

 

00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:44.140

Annie WM Yu: It sounds like a moment of deep connection between you two.

 

00:17:44.340 --> 00:17:47.540

Annie WM Yu: And I also guess trust that was built up by you sharing that experience with us.

 

00:17:47.540 --> 00:17:50.960

Asim Amin: 100%, 100%, yeah.

 

00:17:50.960 --> 00:18:01.280

Annie WM Yu: What then took you from someone who is in therapy, but not talking about it, to creating a company that basically connects people with therapists?

 

00:18:01.280 --> 00:18:01.900

Asim Amin: Really good question.

 

00:18:02.180 --> 00:18:12.760

Asim Amin: So when I came out of that headspace, I started thinking to people around me, and most of them were men, my peers, my colleagues, my friends, people who were really, really close to me, and we share everything.

 

00:18:12.760 --> 00:18:21.520

Asim Amin: And whenever you talk about your day to day, you know, some of them had kids, some of them families, some of them singles, like every, I mean, people were from different stages in life.

 

00:18:21.520 --> 00:18:30.800

Asim Amin: And every time we spoke about just life and work pressure and business or just day to day, everyone had an underlining, oh yeah, there's so much stress, there's so much anxiety.

 

00:18:31.060 --> 00:18:57.360

Asim Amin: We just normalize stress and anxiety, you know, as if it's a part of day to day life, which for the most part it is, I was just trying to reflect if the days I was having, those three days specifically, when I was having those suicidal thoughts, whenever people, and if people ask me how I was feeling, I would never tell anybody I'm having a suicidal thought and tonight I'm going to be standing in my balcony, contemplating my fault, contemplating suicide.

 

00:18:57.360 --> 00:19:02.980

Asim Amin: So I'm like, oh shit, like what if I'm speaking to these people and these people are also going to suicidal thoughts?

 

00:19:02.980 --> 00:19:06.560

Asim Amin: But obviously when you speak to someone, nobody's going to vocalize that.

 

00:19:06.560 --> 00:19:10.800

Asim Amin: If you look at the suicide rates, every single year, they're just increasing.

 

00:19:10.800 --> 00:19:19.860

Asim Amin: And most of them are men, because again, coming back to the stigma and the taboo and especially when it comes to men, boys don't cry, you have to man up and so on.

 

00:19:19.860 --> 00:19:23.340

Asim Amin: But the reality is more and more people are taking their lives every single year.

 

00:19:23.340 --> 00:19:24.900

Asim Amin: And that is only increasing every single year.

 

00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:30.080

Asim Amin: COVID obviously was a big change, change humanity.

 

00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:34.720

Asim Amin: But COVID is not going to take as many lives as suicide does every single year.

 

00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:35.980

Asim Amin: Like it's crazy.

 

00:19:35.980 --> 00:19:40.000

Asim Amin: That was a pandemic, but we are sitting in a mental health epidemic.

 

00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.920

Asim Amin: I just felt that it was my duty to do something about it.

 

00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.400

Asim Amin: Because I just, I was so close to the pain.

 

00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:47.860

Asim Amin: I felt the pain.

 

00:19:47.860 --> 00:19:49.600

Asim Amin: I lived that pain.

 

00:19:49.600 --> 00:20:01.200

Asim Amin: And I just felt because I had that family experience, and because my mom was a therapist, and because I saw that for 20 years, play in front of me, I was able to do something about it.

 

00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.960

Asim Amin: If I hadn't, maybe I would be one of the stats.

 

00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:07.500

Asim Amin: Maybe I would just add up to the stats.

 

00:20:07.500 --> 00:20:14.880

Asim Amin: So, yeah, I just felt the pain for me was so strong that I just felt it was my duty to do something about it.

 

00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:17.420

Asim Amin: And that's when I started exploring the whole space.

 

00:20:18.020 --> 00:20:22.600

Asim Amin: Obviously, it started off from I was speaking to men and so on, but it's not limited to them.

 

00:20:23.120 --> 00:20:24.440

Asim Amin: It's all of us.

 

00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:28.300

Asim Amin: That's when I started exploring and developing the platform.

 

00:20:28.300 --> 00:20:29.600

Annie WM Yu: That's super interesting.

 

00:20:29.600 --> 00:20:36.360

Annie WM Yu: And I guess because you were living in Dubai, but currently you're based in the UK, and I believe Plumm is also based in the UK.

 

00:20:36.360 --> 00:20:40.080

Annie WM Yu: Was that a conscious decision to have the company be UK based?

 

00:20:40.080 --> 00:20:42.880

Annie WM Yu: Is that to address the UK client base?

 

00:20:43.040 --> 00:20:44.720

Asim Amin: 100% conscious decision.

 

00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:48.260

Asim Amin: So there were two main catalysts for me to take that decision.

 

00:20:48.260 --> 00:20:54.780

Asim Amin: One is we spoke about the taboo, the stigma, even in the Western world, UK, US, and so on.

 

00:20:54.780 --> 00:20:57.180

Asim Amin: There's still a lot of taboo and stigma around mental health.

 

00:20:57.180 --> 00:21:02.460

Asim Amin: And of course, the Middle East, the subcontinent, Asia, whatever it is, that much more.

 

00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:05.760

Asim Amin: So I'm like, okay, I need to be in a space where the taboo and stigma is less.

 

00:21:05.760 --> 00:21:08.500

Asim Amin: Secondly, also, the startup ecosystem.

 

00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:10.460

Asim Amin: Dubai is great and it's growing every single year.

 

00:21:10.460 --> 00:21:14.740

Asim Amin: But again, the UK is those many years ahead of the Middle East in general.

 

00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:20.720

Asim Amin: So I'm like a stronger ecosystem when it comes to startup and where there's less stigma in the Middle Home.

 

00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:26.860

Asim Amin: So strategically, and also proximity to the Middle East, because my mom and dad are still in Dubai.

 

00:21:26.860 --> 00:21:28.880

Asim Amin: So I'm like, okay, so what's going to be easier?

 

00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.060

Asim Amin: Is it America or is it the UK?

 

00:21:31.060 --> 00:21:32.540

Asim Amin: So obviously, they commute.

 

00:21:32.540 --> 00:21:38.880

Asim Amin: But again, I think UK is very nicely geographically positioned in the center of the planet, you know?

 

00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:44.860

Asim Amin: So US, Middle East, Europe, I mean, I mean, whole proximity is just fantastic geographically.

 

00:21:44.860 --> 00:21:47.880

Asim Amin: But the two main catalysts really was stigma and the static ecosystem.

 

00:21:48.980 --> 00:21:49.940

Annie WM Yu: Interesting.

 

00:21:49.940 --> 00:21:56.480

Annie WM Yu: And also Asim, I know that Plumm has evolved from what it was when you first created it.

 

00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.840

Annie WM Yu: Could you talk us through how that evolution happened?

 

00:21:59.840 --> 00:22:02.100

Annie WM Yu: And also what the focus is right now?

 

00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:03.880

Asim Amin: Sure.

 

00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:10.240

Asim Amin: So a few catalysts, when we first started off, we were B2C, so going direct to consumer.

 

00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:11.340

Asim Amin: This is pre-COVID.

 

00:22:11.340 --> 00:22:13.940

Asim Amin: We launched mid of 2018.

 

00:22:13.940 --> 00:22:20.820

Asim Amin: And we quickly understood one main problem, which was obviously from the stigma type of world, that that was an underlying thing.

 

00:22:20.820 --> 00:22:24.380

Asim Amin: But the main problem was, oh my god, therapy is very expensive.

 

00:22:24.380 --> 00:22:29.260

Asim Amin: And that is why a lot of people actually have not even tried therapy until now, because therapy is actually very expensive.

 

00:22:29.800 --> 00:22:41.600

Asim Amin: It's a lot cheaper, faster, easier to have a couple of pints, drink a few glasses of wine, just to drown your sorrows, and then relive that next day versus getting into therapy.

 

00:22:41.600 --> 00:22:43.220

Asim Amin: It's very expensive.

 

00:22:43.220 --> 00:22:45.880

Asim Amin: So we're like, okay, so it's very expensive.

 

00:22:46.560 --> 00:22:47.280

Asim Amin: How do you change this?

 

00:22:47.280 --> 00:22:54.580

Asim Amin: So the idea was to then pivot into B2B, so go into corporate well-being, help employees with their mental well-being.

 

00:22:55.080 --> 00:22:58.620

Asim Amin: And the reality is most of us spend most our lives in the workplace.

 

00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:04.980

Asim Amin: And work, although a necessity and our purpose, it also causes a lot of stress and anxiety.

 

00:23:04.980 --> 00:23:09.680

Asim Amin: It is also the start of a lot of stress and anxiety.

 

00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:16.540

Asim Amin: So put the onus on the workplace so that the workplace takes care of the employees' mental health.

 

00:23:16.540 --> 00:23:22.880

Asim Amin: And when they do that, if the employees are feeling better, if they're thriving, then the company is thriving.

 

00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:24.720

Asim Amin: So that was the hypothesis.

 

00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:33.040

Asim Amin: We started going into corporate, but then immediately it was like, no, okay, fine, we get it, but what is it for us?

 

00:23:33.040 --> 00:23:35.680

Asim Amin: Why is it that valuable for us to take care of our employees?

 

00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:36.840

Asim Amin: What mental well-being?

 

00:23:36.840 --> 00:23:38.080

Asim Amin: What is the return on investment?

 

00:23:38.080 --> 00:23:43.020

Asim Amin: So that was really difficult for us to educate the market and prove why it's worth and so on.

 

00:23:43.020 --> 00:23:44.600

Asim Amin: But then COVID happened.

 

00:23:44.600 --> 00:23:47.040

Asim Amin: COVID was really our silver lining.

 

00:23:47.040 --> 00:23:52.220

Asim Amin: The demand of the conversation around mental health has just exploded since COVID, as we all know.

 

00:23:52.220 --> 00:23:54.780

Asim Amin: And Plumm saw exponential growth off the back of it.

 

00:23:54.860 --> 00:24:03.240

Asim Amin: So all the companies that we were speaking to pre-COVID and they all said no, post-COVID, everybody started calling us and like, oh shit, okay, shit, like we need help, we need help, which was great.

 

00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:06.520

Asim Amin: So we were on that exponential curve.

 

00:24:06.520 --> 00:24:12.340

Asim Amin: But then as we know, about two, three years ago, we have started seeing a downturn in the economy.

 

00:24:12.340 --> 00:24:19.000

Asim Amin: So in the post-COVID effect, where budgets are tight, we see mass layoffs, people are just letting go of people.

 

00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:22.440

Asim Amin: With AI agents coming into the mix now, that's even increasing even further.

 

00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:31.020

Asim Amin: So what's started to happen is companies started seeing mental health services as a good to have and not a must have, not business critical.

 

00:24:31.020 --> 00:24:38.620

Asim Amin: Which I mean, I run a business I can also appreciate because the first six months, I was trying to really fight with all these companies.

 

00:24:38.620 --> 00:24:43.600

Asim Amin: When I was arguing with them, I'm like, okay, you're not going to think twice before you pay for like a CRM system.

 

00:24:43.600 --> 00:24:47.360

Asim Amin: But the human beings behind the CRM system were actually operating your business.

 

00:24:48.040 --> 00:24:49.800

Asim Amin: You don't give a shit about their mental health.

 

00:24:49.800 --> 00:24:53.180

Asim Amin: But sometimes you have to lose a few battles to win the war.

 

00:24:53.180 --> 00:24:56.200

Asim Amin: So we're like, okay, if you only have enough budget to be...

 

00:24:56.200 --> 00:24:56.900

Asim Amin: This was the argument.

 

00:24:56.900 --> 00:24:58.640

Asim Amin: They're like, guys, we're laying off people.

 

00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:00.960

Asim Amin: We only have enough budget to pay salaries.

 

00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:01.700

Asim Amin: What do you want us to do?

 

00:25:01.700 --> 00:25:02.900

Asim Amin: How can we take care of...

 

00:25:03.040 --> 00:25:05.300

Asim Amin: How can we provide an employee benefit?

 

00:25:05.300 --> 00:25:07.180

Asim Amin: So okay, we need to do something.

 

00:25:07.180 --> 00:25:10.720

Asim Amin: If not, then we're going to die because we started seeing a lot of churn.

 

00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:13.500

Asim Amin: Like a lot of companies were canceling their contracts.

 

00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:22.860

Asim Amin: And we wish it was a Plumm problem because if companies said, this service is wrong or you need to change this, because we know what to fix, but we cannot change the economy, you know?

 

00:25:22.860 --> 00:25:24.660

Asim Amin: I mean, if you don't have budget, you don't have budget.

 

00:25:24.660 --> 00:25:26.220

Asim Amin: Like, I mean, what can we do?

 

00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:32.960

Asim Amin: So we're like, okay, so we need to now position our move ourselves into a must have rather than a good to have space.

 

00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.960

Asim Amin: So we started interviewing our clients or our buyers, which is the HR.

 

00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:43.000

Asim Amin: So the hypothesis was, what other pain points can we solve for you so that we don't come out of business as well?

 

00:25:43.000 --> 00:26:07.320

Asim Amin: So the three main points we saw was one, they were using a lot of platforms like companies use anywhere between four to seven platforms, ATS, LMS, payroll, whatever different functions that they use, which means there's a lot more cost because you're paying for multiple different platforms, which also means there's a lot more admin because now you have to juggle in between different platforms and finally, because you're using so many different platforms, your data is fragmented, it's all over the place.

 

00:26:07.320 --> 00:26:10.240

Asim Amin: So we're like, okay, how can we solve this problem for them?

 

00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:13.920

Asim Amin: So what we did is we've built an all-in-one HR solution.

 

00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:19.700

Asim Amin: We're also fortunate that over two years ago, OpenAI, HR, GPT has changed all our lives, as we know.

 

00:26:19.700 --> 00:26:23.860

Asim Amin: So the way we develop products today has completely transformed.

 

00:26:23.860 --> 00:26:27.900

Asim Amin: So we're able to build AI or embed AI in everything that we've built.

 

00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:31.220

Asim Amin: And we've been able to build essentially a better mousetrap.

 

00:26:31.220 --> 00:26:38.980

Asim Amin: And off the back of it, we also believe that fundamentally, you know, access to therapy, good quality therapy should be a basic human right.

 

00:26:38.980 --> 00:26:43.220

Asim Amin: And when it comes to therapy or your employees' well-being, budget should not be a conversation.

 

00:26:43.220 --> 00:26:48.540

Asim Amin: So what we've done essentially is we've created this all-in-one platform and we've subsidized mental health.

 

00:26:48.540 --> 00:26:51.460

Asim Amin: So you don't have to think about budget because that was the problem.

 

00:26:51.460 --> 00:26:52.760

Asim Amin: Your budget was the problem.

 

00:26:52.760 --> 00:26:56.860

Asim Amin: Now you don't have to think about budget because we've subsidized mental health within the HRS platform.

 

00:26:56.860 --> 00:26:59.540

Asim Amin: The pivot has been from a place of necessity.

 

00:27:00.180 --> 00:27:06.100

Asim Amin: We've seen changes in the market and we've adapted the change and gone with the flow.

 

00:27:06.100 --> 00:27:22.620

Annie WM Yu: For me as a founder who's working in hardware where timelines are quite a bit slower than for you, I found it really interesting because for me, as someone who's listening to you recount your company story, Plumm was there before the explosion which was brought on by COVID.

 

00:27:22.620 --> 00:27:28.460

Annie WM Yu: It rode the wave when it came, which was all the mental health conversation during and also after COVID.

 

00:27:28.460 --> 00:27:38.840

Annie WM Yu: Then because of economic downturn, there's other factors that's coming to play and actually Plumm is now going up the stack in a way to offer something on top of the core mental health services that was offering.

 

00:27:38.840 --> 00:27:40.320

Annie WM Yu: That's super interesting.

 

00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:49.800

Annie WM Yu: I've been seeing a lot of companies or maybe articles about people building AI chatbots to either supplement or replace human therapists.

 

00:27:49.800 --> 00:27:53.300

Annie WM Yu: I was quite curious to hear what your take on that is.

 

00:27:54.060 --> 00:27:58.960

Asim Amin: This is a very hot topic or a very controversial topic since a couple of years.

 

00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:02.720

Asim Amin: We also have an AI chatbot at Therapy and Coaching.

 

00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:06.120

Asim Amin: We've had this over two years now.

 

00:28:06.120 --> 00:28:06.840

Asim Amin: It's very mature.

 

00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:13.440

Asim Amin: It helps you with very high level touch points and sessions.

 

00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:18.240

Asim Amin: But the main premise is to triage you into a one-to-one therapy session.

 

00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:20.180

Asim Amin: So really understand where you're at.

 

00:28:20.180 --> 00:28:22.800

Asim Amin: It's like an emergency just to check.

 

00:28:22.800 --> 00:28:25.880

Asim Amin: Right now, if you need help and support, what do you do?

 

00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:27.320

Asim Amin: You can't book a therapy session.

 

00:28:27.320 --> 00:28:30.800

Asim Amin: Even if it's the fastest, it's gonna take you like a day, two days to actually speak to a therapist.

 

00:28:30.800 --> 00:28:33.320

Asim Amin: So what happens right now or in between?

 

00:28:33.360 --> 00:28:39.960

Asim Amin: So we fix that problem, and then it triages you into a one-to-one therapy session because it just understood you a little bit better.

 

00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:41.940

Asim Amin: But also from a supervision aspect.

 

00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:45.720

Asim Amin: So we also have human beings behind the scene.

 

00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:55.700

Asim Amin: If we sense that you're gonna do self-harm or you're gonna cause harm to someone else, then there's trigger points, red flags, human being are also coming into the mix.

 

00:28:55.700 --> 00:29:08.120

Asim Amin: But it's also interesting, what I've seen or what we've seen collectively is that the human behavior or the people's behavior, a lot of men actually use the chat bot, more than women, which is quite interesting.

 

00:29:08.120 --> 00:29:20.460

Asim Amin: Also because there's a lot of stigma, taboo, whatever, even though we know, I mean, we should know, that when you speak to a therapist, everything is confidential, there's no judgment, but men are still, I'm gonna speak to a human being.

 

00:29:20.460 --> 00:29:28.260

Asim Amin: I'm guessing it's also because most of the therapists are perhaps women, maybe they also don't wanna now share this or become vulnerable in front of a woman.

 

00:29:28.260 --> 00:29:29.420

Asim Amin: That could be an element as well.

 

00:29:29.980 --> 00:29:38.520

Asim Amin: So it's quite interesting how most men are interacting or engaging with the AI chatbot or AI therapist.

 

00:29:38.520 --> 00:29:48.320

Asim Amin: And off the back of it, a lot of men who've never gone into any therapy session are now starting to use or do therapy sessions because they first came in through the chatbot.

 

00:29:48.320 --> 00:29:51.800

Asim Amin: So it's interesting from a human behavior perspective how things are changing.

 

00:29:51.840 --> 00:29:55.960

Asim Amin: And finally, the reality is we're more than 8 billion people on this planet.

 

00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:00.180

Asim Amin: Most of us have stress and anxiety.

 

00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:09.340

Asim Amin: Call it social media or this new world that we're in, high pace, you know, everything that is going on around us, the stress and anxiety levels are not reducing, they're only increasing.

 

00:30:09.340 --> 00:30:16.060

Asim Amin: It's humanly impossible for us to have enough therapists, human therapists on this planet to help all the people.

 

00:30:16.060 --> 00:30:17.040

Asim Amin: It's just not possible.

 

00:30:17.080 --> 00:30:23.580

Asim Amin: We just don't, so demand and supply correlation in my head, today, it does not match and it's never going to match.

 

00:30:23.580 --> 00:30:28.340

Asim Amin: How can you have enough human being therapist to take care of all the human beings on this planet?

 

00:30:28.340 --> 00:30:29.900

Asim Amin: It's just not possible.

 

00:30:29.900 --> 00:30:33.200

Asim Amin: You know, it's not even 1% if you look at the ratio.

 

00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:40.320

Asim Amin: You have to use or you have to get help from technology to cater to the high demand.

 

00:30:40.320 --> 00:30:42.440

Asim Amin: Like something has to change.

 

00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:43.080

Annie WM Yu: That makes sense.

 

00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:44.760

Annie WM Yu: I know I'm just quite curious.

 

00:30:44.760 --> 00:30:56.700

Annie WM Yu: From the users of the chatbots of the therapy services, do you know what are some of the more common problems that employees would want to speak to a therapist about?

 

00:30:56.700 --> 00:31:04.900

Asim Amin: Interestingly, a lot of it is workplace-related stress, which as we can all appreciate, because a lot of stress is workplace-related.

 

00:31:04.900 --> 00:31:07.540

Asim Amin: Financial well-being is a big one as well.

 

00:31:07.540 --> 00:31:13.580

Asim Amin: I mean, the cost of living crisis, people are not getting promoted, but people are trying to make ends meet.

 

00:31:13.580 --> 00:31:15.460

Asim Amin: So financial well-being is a big one.

 

00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:23.360

Asim Amin: I think financial well-being also comes from a place where a schooling system, that's a different tangent altogether, but does not really teach us to be financially stable.

 

00:31:23.360 --> 00:31:27.040

Asim Amin: Like that's not a subject that is being taught at school.

 

00:31:27.040 --> 00:31:29.680

Asim Amin: So people go into debt and there's a lot of aspects.

 

00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:36.820

Asim Amin: So workplace stress-related, financial well-being, and the last, the top three, I would say, the last one is relationships.

 

00:31:36.820 --> 00:31:45.740

Asim Amin: And again, I think it comes from a place where it's not just relationships like husband and wife, boyfriend and girlfriend kind of partners, but just relationships in general.

 

00:31:45.740 --> 00:31:48.240

Asim Amin: Mother and son, siblings.

 

00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.000

Asim Amin: So relationship is also like a big one that we see.

 

00:31:51.000 --> 00:32:02.760

Annie WM Yu: And Asim, for you, looking forward, how do you think that AI tools or AI agents could be used to help improve or enhance therapy services?

 

00:32:02.820 --> 00:32:04.360

Asim Amin: Wow, many ways.

 

00:32:04.360 --> 00:32:16.160

Asim Amin: I think we're in a good place already where the agents and the AI is kind of there on a very high level to help you.

 

00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:23.020

Asim Amin: Obviously, it can never replace a human being from a human connection standpoint, but it's also interesting.

 

00:32:23.020 --> 00:32:30.520

Asim Amin: I mean, the generation, the new generation, which is now, I don't know if they call not to gen alpha, there's gen alpha, there's something else after that as well.

 

00:32:30.520 --> 00:32:31.480

Asim Amin: I'm losing track now.

 

00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:37.620

Asim Amin: But a lot of the new generation is going to be, I mean, this is going to be the lived reality.

 

00:32:37.620 --> 00:32:43.040

Asim Amin: Like simply because we are now that transitioning generation, where we didn't have it, now we have it.

 

00:32:43.040 --> 00:32:45.400

Asim Amin: So it's like a lot of questions back and forth.

 

00:32:45.860 --> 00:32:48.680

Asim Amin: But the new generation really is going to be born into this.

 

00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:58.780

Asim Amin: So the one element that is maybe a little bit difficult for us to build a connection or build a relationship with the AI, although I have a relationship with my ChatGPT, but that is a different story.

 

00:32:58.780 --> 00:33:04.700

Asim Amin: But a lot of people are also going to start building relationships with their chat bot or chat therapists and all that.

 

00:33:04.700 --> 00:33:09.980

Asim Amin: So I think the future is really, how can we get help instantly?

 

00:33:09.980 --> 00:33:21.520

Asim Amin: The biggest problem is because there's a lot of lag in the time when I'm feeling something is wrong, versus I'm actually getting that help, that lag then becomes your priorities just shift.

 

00:33:21.520 --> 00:33:29.640

Asim Amin: Okay, I was feeling like this in the moment, but I'm not anymore, so I'm just going to ignore the problem, and then I'm going to continue on with my day, and then the next day comes, next week comes.

 

00:33:29.780 --> 00:33:32.200

Asim Amin: Again, I have a problem, but it's just too much friction.

 

00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:38.120

Asim Amin: I'm going to continue with my day, and that just becomes six months and six years and something catastrophic happens.

 

00:33:38.120 --> 00:33:43.680

Asim Amin: Getting help in that moment is super important, and that is not a Google search, and it's that sort of blog article.

 

00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:45.680

Asim Amin: That has to be a conversation.

 

00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:57.440

Asim Amin: Obviously, the efficacy and the governance piece around the delivery of the service is super important, because there has to be governance, it has to be really closely monitored, and how we're building our agents and so on.

 

00:33:57.640 --> 00:33:58.560

Asim Amin: I think that is super critical.

 

00:33:58.660 --> 00:34:02.820

Asim Amin: So human beings behind that engine are super important.

 

00:34:02.820 --> 00:34:06.460

Asim Amin: But really, I mean, it comes from a place where instant support is important.

 

00:34:06.460 --> 00:34:14.720

Asim Amin: Like if I'm feeling like shit now, I need support now, not the next day, because things can dramatically change from today to tomorrow.

 

00:34:14.720 --> 00:34:18.900

Asim Amin: And that is when, sadly, a lot of people actually take that plunge, which I was out by.

 

00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:20.260

Asim Amin: It's in the moment.

 

00:34:20.260 --> 00:34:26.820

Asim Amin: You plan all these things, but you don't actually plan that, oh, I will restart this conversation with suicide.

 

00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:35.980

Asim Amin: But at least, I don't think, at least this was not my case, that you plan, okay, now, in the next three days, at 3 p.m., I'm gonna take my life.

 

00:34:35.980 --> 00:34:37.020

Asim Amin: That is never the case.

 

00:34:37.020 --> 00:34:38.020

Asim Amin: It's in the moment.

 

00:34:38.020 --> 00:34:40.720

Asim Amin: It's just something that, oh my god, I just can't take it anymore.

 

00:34:40.720 --> 00:34:43.000

Asim Amin: Boom, this is what's gonna happen.

 

00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:49.360

Asim Amin: I think AI agents or AI in general is gonna help us from that perspective where we get support in that instance.

 

00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.080

Asim Amin: And I think that is super critical.

 

00:34:51.080 --> 00:34:52.300

Annie WM Yu: Very interesting.

 

00:34:52.300 --> 00:34:56.480

Annie WM Yu: For you, what role do you see yourself or Plumm playing in that future?

 

00:34:56.580 --> 00:34:57.420

Asim Amin: I think two things.

 

00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:01.340

Asim Amin: One is normalizing the conversation around mental health.

 

00:35:01.340 --> 00:35:02.900

Asim Amin: And that is why we're having this podcast.

 

00:35:02.900 --> 00:35:06.120

Asim Amin: I'm sharing everything that I can, but I'm just the one person.

 

00:35:06.120 --> 00:35:08.340

Asim Amin: So it's like a blip in this entire world.

 

00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:12.380

Asim Amin: What Plumm does is so important to me because we're in the workplace.

 

00:35:12.380 --> 00:35:16.040

Asim Amin: So normalizing the conversation in the workplace is super important.

 

00:35:16.040 --> 00:35:18.760

Asim Amin: A lot of stigma and taboo also comes from the workplace.

 

00:35:18.760 --> 00:35:28.500

Asim Amin: Like, I mean, if my manager knows that, you know, I am seeking therapy or, you know, I have high levels of anxiety, maybe I won't get promoted, I might even get fired.

 

00:35:28.500 --> 00:35:33.460

Asim Amin: So normalizing the conversation in the workplace is super important because that is a major part of our life.

 

00:35:33.460 --> 00:35:35.900

Asim Amin: That is also the source of our livelihood.

 

00:35:35.900 --> 00:35:41.100

Asim Amin: If that is in check, then it can have a positive ripple effect in our personal lives.

 

00:35:41.100 --> 00:35:43.040

Asim Amin: So I think that is really important.

 

00:35:43.040 --> 00:35:52.800

Asim Amin: So I believe, you know, me continuously vocalizing internally this within our team, obviously, we have, you know, we're in the mental health space, so it's a different ethos that we have within the culture of Plumm.

 

00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:57.820

Asim Amin: But also how Plumm normalizing the situation in the workplace, that is one.

 

00:35:57.820 --> 00:36:00.740

Asim Amin: The second thing, also subsidizing mental health is super important.

 

00:36:00.740 --> 00:36:03.700

Asim Amin: When you buy Plumm, you get mental health default.

 

00:36:03.700 --> 00:36:10.800

Asim Amin: And that is the narrative that we have, that mental health should be a default in every workplace.

 

00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:14.500

Asim Amin: So I feel that is where our agenda is going towards.

 

00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:17.520

Asim Amin: It should be a default in every workplace.

 

00:36:17.520 --> 00:36:21.060

Annie WM Yu: I'm really excited to see what you and Plumm get up to in the future.

 

00:36:21.060 --> 00:36:21.420

Asim Amin: Thank you.

 

00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:31.100

Annie WM Yu: Let me ask you our podcast staple, which is, what is one thing that you believe will allow more people to have better mental health?

 

00:36:31.100 --> 00:36:36.520

Asim Amin: More conversations like this, you know, Annie, I think it's very important for us to continuously share.

 

00:36:36.520 --> 00:36:43.180

Asim Amin: We all have at a certain point of time in our lives had our own fair share of mental ill health.

 

00:36:43.180 --> 00:36:44.820

Asim Amin: The problem is we just don't share.

 

00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:48.520

Asim Amin: But the more we share, the more we normalize the conversation around mental health.

 

00:36:48.520 --> 00:36:56.040

Asim Amin: And I think that is really important because, and I can't stress this enough, Annie, I believe we're really sitting in a mental health epidemic.

 

00:36:56.040 --> 00:37:03.880

Asim Amin: And I think the onus is not on the NHS or on the therapist, or on thought leaders, or on Plummington.

 

00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:06.140

Asim Amin: I think the onus is really on us.

 

00:37:06.140 --> 00:37:09.900

Asim Amin: If we want the world to change, we need to change ourselves first.

 

00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:11.140

Asim Amin: I think that is super important.

 

00:37:11.140 --> 00:37:13.980

Asim Amin: And, you know, I would just encourage everyone to share.

 

00:37:13.980 --> 00:37:17.900

Asim Amin: Because the reality is, the more you share, the more you normalize, yes.

 

00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:21.280

Asim Amin: But the more you share, the more personable you also become.

 

00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:27.200

Asim Amin: It also, selfishly, somehow becomes a therapeutic journey for yourself.

 

00:37:27.200 --> 00:37:29.280

Asim Amin: Like, I mean, I'm in constant therapy.

 

00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:35.400

Asim Amin: Like me, just sharing this again, remembering the stage that I was in, and just seeing how far I've come.

 

00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:36.540

Asim Amin: That is really empowering.

 

00:37:36.540 --> 00:37:41.600

Asim Amin: You know, like, I mean, you've taken me on a many therapy session at this point in time, which is just fantastic.

 

00:37:42.180 --> 00:37:47.240

Asim Amin: So, it really helps offload our own shame, our own guilt, our own pain.

 

00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:49.140

Asim Amin: Like, I mean, it's just, it's just magic.

 

00:37:49.140 --> 00:37:53.100

Asim Amin: The more you talk, the better you feel, and the better more people feel around you.

 

00:37:53.100 --> 00:37:55.380

Asim Amin: So, sharing is super important.

 

00:37:55.380 --> 00:37:57.940

Annie WM Yu: I really like the way that you have phrased that.

 

00:37:57.940 --> 00:38:02.440

Annie WM Yu: You share is almost a selfish way to offload your own guilt shame.

 

00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:18.880

Annie WM Yu: And to be honest, when I do this podcast, it's also quite therapeutic in a way for me to hear all of these stories from people who are doing incredible things, but they are willing to talk about really personal things that have happened to them, and that at the moment really, really did affect them.

 

00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:27.040

Annie WM Yu: And for me, it's a really good way to just learn and also normalize, you know, this happens, and they're still here, and they are talking and doing X, Y, Z.

 

00:38:27.040 --> 00:38:30.880

Annie WM Yu: So yeah, really, really appreciate you coming on to share your story.

 

00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:32.180

Asim Amin: I really appreciate you having me.

 

00:38:32.180 --> 00:38:35.020

Asim Amin: This is a very important thing that you're doing, and I think it's really powerful as well.

 

00:38:35.020 --> 00:38:36.220

Asim Amin: So thank you so much for having me.

 

00:38:36.220 --> 00:38:40.980

Asim Amin: I hope you continue to have great conversations, and I absolutely enjoyed this.

 

00:38:40.980 --> 00:38:42.240

Asim Amin: Thank you, Annie.

 

00:38:42.240 --> 00:38:45.580

Annie WM Yu: That's a wrap for today's episode of the Low to Grow podcast.

 

00:38:46.340 --> 00:38:53.160

Annie WM Yu: If it resonated with you, leave a review and hit follow to help more people to find important conversations.

 

00:38:53.160 --> 00:38:55.100

Annie WM Yu: Keep growing and see you next time.