Investment to Impact: ex-BlackRock investor's Journey in Mental Health Innovation

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It all happened after a suicide
attempt where I was hospitalized

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and put on a psychiatric hold.
It was after over a decade of

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suicidal ideation.
Painting now is the Director of

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Operations at Simon Ventures,
helping to invest into the next

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wave of mental and brain health
technologies.

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However, interestingly, Katie's
career actually started off

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doing global infrastructure
investment at Black Frog, and

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this comes after she studied
economics and computer science

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at Harvard University.
The catalyst that led to that

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career tradition?
It really stemmed from one of

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the lowest parts of my life.
Welcome to Low to Grow, the

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podcast transforming life's
toughest moments into

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opportunity for growth.
I'm Annie, a Focus Under 30

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technology founder whose
entrepreneurship journey ran

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parallel to a mental health
awakening.

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In every episode, I sit down
with inspiring individuals and

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delve into how they managed to
turn their personal or

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professional challenges into
opportunities for growth.

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If you're facing uncertainty in
your life, feeling down, or

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simply need a kick of
inspiration to keep moving

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forward, this is your space for
the honest and uplifting

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conversations that you will want
to hear.

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Hit follow so you never miss an
episode and let's dive in.

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Today, I am delighted to
introduce someone who has worn

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more hats in her career than
most people try on in a

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lifetime.
Haiti now is the Director of

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Operations at Simon Ventures,
where she is helping to invest

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into the next wave of mental and
brain health technologies.

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Before that, she scaled growth
and operations at Cerebral,

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which is the mental health
startup Talking Access to Mental

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Health.
However, interestingly,

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Caitlin's career actually
started off doing global

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infrastructure investment at
BlackRock.

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And this comes after she studied
economics and computer science

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at Harvard University.
She is also now doing a master's

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in Apply Neuroscience at King's
College London.

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And to me, Caitlin is a living
example of what it looks like to

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build a career that's not just
impressive on paper, but also

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deeply mission driven.
Caitlin, welcome to the Low to

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Grow podcast.
Thank you so much for having me.

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Wonderful.
Well, Caitlin, who do you think

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will benefit the most from
listening to our conversation

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today?
So I think anyone who feels like

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they're behind life when they
really aren't, anyone who is

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navigating their sense of self
in this chaotic world and anyone

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who is tackling a mental illness
in their career.

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Right, let's just dive in then.
You studied at Harvard and then

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went on to work at Black Frog
before transitioning into the

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more mental health aspect of
your career.

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Could you tell me a bit more
about how that transition

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happened?
Yeah.

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So, you know, I started my
career in infrastructure and it

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really started because I was
interested in both having

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investing experience but also
having impact experience with

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infrastructure.
I was able to invest in a lot of

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socially impactful causes like
renewable energy, airports and

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more.
It was a great starting point

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for my career, but I quickly
learned it was essentially

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during the pandemic that it
wasn't where I wanted to be.

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You know, I started working on
deals and reading a lot of

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engineering reports and
operating reports and kind of

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losing alignment with what I
wanted to do and where I was at.

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How did you move from investment
into mental health?

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The catalyst that led to that
career transition, it really

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stemmed from one of the lowest
parts of my life.

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It all happened after a suicide
attempt where I was hospitalized

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and put on a psychiatric hold.
Now, a lot LED up to that.

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You know, it was after over a
decade of suicidal ideation, a

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really stressful work
environment In the COVID-19

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pandemic, I was an investor at a
large infrastructure fund over

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at BlackRock.
It was a multi trillion dollar

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fund.
I invested in assets like

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renewable energy, toll roads,
airports.

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And during the pandemic, I moved
out of my New York apartment and

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actually moved back in with my
parents.

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I was really lucky to have a
very safe family environment.

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But like many others, I was
socially isolated away from

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people my age for nearly a year.
You know, that isolation coupled

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with extremely long working
hours, working on multiple

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deals, it really led to chronic
stress, and I started to fall

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behind.
Even on work.

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I started to feel like my
technical skills weren't

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building as fast as possible,
and we were understaffed at

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work.
That stress turned into what I

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thought was depression, so I
asked my doctor to prescribe me

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with SSRI medication and that
really didn't help the symptoms

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at all.
Now around spring 2021, I was

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also very active on Twitter and
affiliated with an

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entrepreneurial community called
Launch House.

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It was series AA16Z back startup
hosted a lot of events and

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programming for early stage
founders and during that time I

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was actually invited to a
weekend hackathon in this multi

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$1,000,000 mansion.
Now imagine, you know, almost a

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year of isolation and then
suddenly being put in this

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environment with passionate
entrepreneurs building exciting

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products.
Suddenly in this flashy

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environment, it felt like I was
on top of the world.

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I felt like I had a switch.
I was so energized.

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I loved what I was working on.
During the hackathon.

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I met so many incredible people,
but I was also messaging

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hundreds of people offline.
I later learned that this was

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episode of mania.
I was not sleeping at all, 0

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hours per night for four days
straight, running 15 miles per

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day.
And you know, with this matic

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high came a eventual crash.
Like I mentioned, the suicide

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attempt.
There I learned that I had

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mental illness called bipolar
one, which many people know to

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have matic highs and depressive
lows, but also symptoms like

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psychosis, you know,
hallucinations of delusions and

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also suicidal thinking.
You know, that hospitalization

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really made me have that mental
shift away from the traditional

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finance world into the mental
health sort of world.

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Wow, that's a really profound
life experience, Caitlin, and

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also evidently a very difficult
one for you to have gone through

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and come out of.
So thank you so much for sharing

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that.
I'm quite curious to understand

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in the build up that led to
this.

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Crash.
How many months do you think

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that all of this had been
festering within you?

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I think the evident depression
was maybe around six or seven

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months.
You know, when we first

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transitioned to remote work, it
was very flexible.

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I was continue to work on, but I
started to experience lower

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energy.
It was very difficult to get out

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of bed, difficult to write
emails, while I actually had to

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work on these really intensive
deals with my team at work.

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But I would push on even if I
felt low energy because of the

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expectations to go to work, to
perform at my best, and to

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continue on.
I always told myself that

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everyone was stressed during
this time.

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It was a pandemic, there was a
lot of uncertainty, There were a

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lot of people that were ill, and
I always compared myself to the

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broader environment that
everyone was experiencing this.

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So I think that's what also
prevented me from getting more

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holistic care is because I
thought I was just one of many

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instead of really paying
attention to getting more

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adequate care to understand what
was happening to me.

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Did anyone around you notice the
change in you or suggest for you

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to get help whether it's a
family friend or a colleague?

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Yeah.
So I'm very lucky that I was

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living with my parents.
They noticed that there was that

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change.
I was very different when I was

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speaking at home outside of
work.

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I was definitely not as
energized to even perform in my

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job or to talk about hobbies or
anything outside of work.

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And that's what initially pushed
me to get the depression

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medication.
And I think that was the

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education piece.
I I did not know what bipolar

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was.
I have heard of depression.

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It was evident that I had
symptoms of depression.

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So I just thought, OK, let me
get on medication to prevent

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this.
But of course the medication for

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an illness like depression is
very different than bipolar

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disorder.
Did you speak to anyone about

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how you were feeling in that
period that led to the four days

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of mania?
At that point, I didn't have a

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professional like a therapist to
really dive into it.

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Like I would briefly say that I
was stressed to my family, but I

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didn't go down into the details.
You know, stress is common in in

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very high pressure jobs.
So I thought that it was just

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the norm.
So I didn't dig into why I was

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feeling that way.
I didn't dig into the suicidal

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ideation that was happening and
mustering inside of me.

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I tried to avoid it rather than
address it.

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And I think that's what led to
some of the more major aspects

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of the crises, is that I didn't
have the right tools to address

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it.
That makes sense.

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And I know earlier you mentioned
that you were leaving at home

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with her parents and that they
didn't notice that change in

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you.
Can you remember how they maybe

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try to point it out to you or
talk about it with you in that

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period?
Yeah, So I always was able to

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eat meals with my parents, and I
think that was one of the

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luckiest components.
I had a great support system

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during this very stressful time.
And I remember my parents

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starting to ask questions about
like, should you stay in this

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job?
And it wasn't about diagnosis.

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It was more of is this
environment the right one for

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you?
Maybe you should take a break.

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They recognize that, you know,
the job was not the best fit for

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me, but I had a lot of pressure
to stay as it was a great title.

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It was a great firm.
I was constantly amazed with my

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colleagues.
They were all very intelligent,

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so it was very difficult to take
a step to leave.

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But my parents immediately knew
that it wasn't the best fit for

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me, so they were very open about
that.

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It wasn't about you need to do
something, it was more curiosity

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and open endedness to try to
figure out a solution together.

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Understood.
For you, looking back to help

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someone in the audience who
might be in a similar position

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in the lead up to doing
something quite drastic, are

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there things or signs that you
wish your colleagues or your

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friends or family could have
spotted or maybe actions that

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they could have taken so that
you wouldn't have had to

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actually, you know, face such a
drastic event in your own life?

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It's very important to have
psycho education even if you

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don't have a mental illness of
your own.

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My parents, for example, never
sought out clinical care, so

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they didn't have the
psychoeducation to recommend a

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therapist to me.
I'd say with my colleagues, I

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didn't open up to them, so they
saw me performing and turning in

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projects.
So I don't think there's

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anything that my bosses or my
colleagues could have done to

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prevent that because I had, you
know, that facade in the work

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environment.
But I'd say that even if you

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don't have a mental illness now
and you want to prepare for the

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opportunity to support someone
else, think about what types of

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professionals you couldn't refer
your friends and family to.

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Because when you are depressed
or when you are manic or you're

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experiencing a mental illness,
it's very difficult to take the

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steps to get care.
It's difficult enough to know

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who to turn to, how to pay for
care, where to go for your

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specific illness.
So if you do that preparation

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ahead of time, you'll be able to
simply send over a resource.

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Make it as easy as possible for
that friend in need or that

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family member in need to start
to prevent anything more made

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during their life.
Being had experiences that you

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have had, if you could go back
to what would you advise your

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younger self to do differently?
I'd say that I would advise my

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younger self to not avoid
difficult conversations.

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When I was growing up and even
in my initial work environments

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when I felt like I needed help
or I didn't know the answer or I

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didn't have the right
professional care around me, I

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never spoke up because that's a
difficult conversation.

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You have to confront the
difficulties with your

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colleagues or your family
members if you have those

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difficult conversations.
But I always say now that if you

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avoid difficult conversations,
you are allowing yourself to

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have short term comfort over
long term dysregulation.

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So if you address those
difficult conversations now, you

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will be more regulated in the
long term.

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That makes sense.
And interestingly, I think

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that's what a lot of other
people thought I've spoken to

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00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,920
also say it's to not avoid
difficult conversations and to

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actually talk it out.
And the talking is actually a

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00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,920
process of processing those
emotions for yourself while so

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00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,080
getting a conversation started
with people who are important to

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00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:23,920
you.
Really, really appreciate you

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00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,800
mentioning that.
Caitlin, What resource do you

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00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,800
wish that you had back when you
first started your job at

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00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,680
BlackRock?
So it was actually a resource

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00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,120
that BlackRock had available and
I only found out once my

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00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:44,360
director really helps me out
with my medical leave is I think

244
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,080
a lot more corporations need to
have mental health support for

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00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,320
their employees, but not just
have that as a partnership with

246
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,400
companies and organizations, but
really market that to their

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00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,480
employees.
Make it a conversation as you

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00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,000
onboard your employees.
I later learned that BlackRock

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00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,480
actually had available
teletherapy care for their

250
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,080
employees, but it it was not
something that I knew.

251
00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,480
I didn't have that on my phone.
I didn't have it on my laptop.

252
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,440
It was only during the moment of
crisis that I found out that I

253
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,200
could seek out a therapist
covered by the health insurance

254
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,640
provided by my employer.
I think it's more about knowing

255
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,560
what resources are available to
you and seeking out professional

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00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:26,120
care even when you don't have a
crisis at hand, even to prepare

257
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,320
for any challenges that you'll
have in the future.

258
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,640
Understood.
And I'm quite curious to

259
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,320
understand what your journey of
learning about and trying to

260
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,680
understand what professional
support meant for you looked

261
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:39,640
like.
Because I know that a lot of

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00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,120
people that I speak to,
especially if they grow up in

263
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,560
families where, you know,
perhaps they are the first ones

264
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,640
to want to seek professional
mental health support.

265
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,440
There's almost a sense of not
knowing where to start.

266
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,800
So quite curious to hear about
how that was like for you.

267
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,680
Yes, it was a really long
journey because you know, first

268
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,920
and foremost, even getting
psychiatric medications, it was

269
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,360
not something that my family was
used to, that I was used to.

270
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:07,000
So even knowing who to turn to,
what psychiatrist was

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00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,080
specialized in bipolar one
versus depression versus other

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00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,760
mental illnesses.
Also within the US ecosystem,

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00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,720
the healthcare insurance
industry is quite complicated,

274
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,040
especially for just a normal
employee that's trying to

275
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,680
navigate all the pricing and the
eligibility amongst providers

276
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,560
with your insurance.
So I remember trying to sign up

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00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,880
for a psychiatrist, I had health
insurance and I thought it would

278
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,800
be covered by my insurance, but
then getting bill at the end of

279
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,200
the period because I had to pay
out of out of hand because it

280
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,800
wasn't covered.
So I learned a lot about

281
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,240
navigating through the insurance
world, navigating through

282
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,840
psychiatrists that were
specialized across different

283
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,680
types of care.
And then also on the therapy

284
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,400
side, you know, I started off,
you know, being really afraid to

285
00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,080
open up about what was happening
in my life.

286
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,160
I started off with one of the
broader teletherapy platforms

287
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,680
called Better Help.
It was a great starting point.

288
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,360
I was able to get initial care,
but I started to realize that I

289
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,720
wanted different modalities of
therapy.

290
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,320
I think talk therapy is one
option, but there's a lot of

291
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,200
different methods to deliver
therapy that I only learned

292
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,400
about through the process of
seeking care.

293
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,360
Interesting.
What are the modalities of

294
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,800
therapy that you've explored?
I've explored a ton.

295
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,240
So, you know, started off with a
type of therapy that is very

296
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,800
popular called cognitive
behavioral therapy.

297
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,840
So very much a talk therapy
based modality.

298
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,240
And then I also explored
acceptance and commitment

299
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,920
therapy as well as EMDR, which
is very much trauma based.

300
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,680
I also tried alternative
modality called brain spotting,

301
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:50,280
which is also focused on trauma,
where a therapist holds a wand,

302
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,560
navigates to a certain part of
your brain, and then processes

303
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,720
different traumas and emotions
with you as an objective

304
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,960
observer.
You know, a type of modality

305
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:02,600
that a lot of people don't know
and it's still a very new

306
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,079
modality.
I've also experienced

307
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,599
psychedelic guiding in an
international setting where I

308
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:12,960
had a guide navigate psilocybin
experience with me and then

309
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,200
going through my experiences,
you know, all the way through to

310
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,560
childhood as well.
So some therapies are more

311
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,560
accepted and and known in
broader society and then some

312
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,240
modalities that are still
finding its way to broader

313
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,520
acceptance and understanding.
How did you come across the

314
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,680
lesson Known Modalities of
Therapy?

315
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,520
I mean, one thing with me that I
realized is I'm a person that

316
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,480
talks to a lot of people and
gets inspired by other people's

317
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,920
journeys.
And I learned about brain

318
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,800
spotting from someone who also
experienced this type of

319
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,520
modality.
She gave me some of the benefits

320
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,160
that was outside of the
traditional talk therapy.

321
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,560
And because of her referral, I
was able to try it myself and

322
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,560
had a wonderful relationship
with an integrative therapist

323
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,480
that really helped me process a
lot of trauma that was stuck in

324
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,120
my body and also some blocked
memories that I wasn't unable to

325
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,680
uncover in traditional methods
of therapy.

326
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,960
And then with the psychedelic
community, it's a very global

327
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,800
community of folks that are
talking about different

328
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,520
modalities of care, different
psychedelic therapeutics as

329
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,920
well.
And that was a lot just driven

330
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,720
by curiosity.
I knew that it was a very

331
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,080
stigmatized subject.
You know, a lot of people might

332
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,440
view it as controversial, but
there are places, places beyond

333
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,720
the legal landscape that you can
do as.

334
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,000
You can find guides that can
help you navigate this type of

335
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,560
modality, especially in
international settings.

336
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,560
Interesting.
And then Caitlin, I know that,

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00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,280
you know, it sounds like you've
had this longer journey, which

338
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,000
really was catalyzed by the
episodes that you had was

339
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,640
working at Black Frog.
Did you then go back to work at

340
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,800
Black Frog, or did you
immediately even try to navigate

341
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,720
towards another type of role?
So, you know, working at a

342
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:04,280
company as globally recognized
and successful as BlackRock, one

343
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,960
of the best things with
BlackRock is he had excellent

344
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,760
medical leave.
You know, coming out of this

345
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,000
burnout and this experience, I
thought, you know, I needed to

346
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,280
rest.
I needed to have a break from my

347
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,120
career.
And I had a really wonderful

348
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:23,640
director on my team that was
there with me, you know, through

349
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,040
the process and helped me take
that medical leave, not just

350
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,240
immediately quit, but really
take the time to find out what I

351
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,080
needed to do next in terms of my
clinical care, in terms of where

352
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,080
I wanted to live, what I wanted
to do, if I wanted to take a

353
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,120
break or go back to BlackRock.
And you know, the the best thing

354
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:45,680
about that is though, it was the
catalyst that really made me

355
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,480
make this change in my career.
They really supported me in

356
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,880
finding that next step.
I love that.

357
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,280
Could you share a bit more about
then you know, the emotions that

358
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,040
you went through to pivot your
career?

359
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,080
Yes.
So one of the things that I did

360
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,920
initially coming out of
BlackRock as one ambitious type

361
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,440
of person does, is I was
thinking, how can I make this

362
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,640
life experience into a startup?
So instead of fully resting in

363
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,320
the very beginning, I was, you
know, very fascinated and

364
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,040
connected with entrepreneurial
communities at the time.

365
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,080
There were some teletherapy
companies that were emerging

366
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:26,360
back in 2021 and I was thinking
of really segmenting into youth

367
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,920
teletherapy.
So what I did, you know, not

368
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,920
having full time startup
experience, I drove into the

369
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,080
industry myself and it was
actually quite healing for me

370
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,720
because I was interviewing, you
know, teenagers that were

371
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,080
experiencing mental health
issues, was talking to

372
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,920
therapists that were trying to
build out practices for youth.

373
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,480
I was talking to insurance
providers about some of the

374
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,800
issues with the current system.
And so even if this startup

375
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,680
failed, I didn't reach that next
level of funding or didn't have

376
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,280
a long experience with this
company because I was very

377
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,120
interested in the space and dove
deep and spoke to a lot of

378
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:09,880
people in the mental health
industry outside of having a

379
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,080
job.
You know, through my own

380
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,320
curiosity, I was able to get a
lot of industry experience and

381
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,360
kind of make a bet on what kinds
of companies could actually grow

382
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:23,080
in the ecosystem.
So I ended up closing down that

383
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,640
startup and joined a really fast
growing cell therapy startup

384
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,640
called Cerebral.
It was a massive Unicorn, you

385
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,920
know, became a Unicorn in about
two years.

386
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,080
And I LED growth and operations
there and was also part of the

387
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,320
insurance department.
And like I mentioned, the US

388
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,880
healthcare industry, especially
with insurance can be quite

389
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,000
complicated.
So I was working with very

390
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,920
passionate team members both in
providing care to a wide range

391
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,520
of mental illnesses as well as
having partnerships with these

392
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,240
insurance providers, navigating
the complicated aspects of

393
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,280
billing, navigating new product
launches and different types of

394
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,640
illnesses as well.
It took that you know,

395
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,040
experience as a founder and
really applied it to a bigger,

396
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,040
fast growing startup in this
space.

397
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,960
You were really in the trenches
of helping to scale access to

398
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,360
good quality mental health care.
I wanted to ask you as someone

399
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:21,160
who's also operated in that
really high pressure startup

400
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,080
environment, what is something
that you learn about growth and

401
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,760
also what is something that you
learn about yourself over your

402
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,280
time there?
A very interesting aspect about

403
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,760
Cerebral was it was one of the
fastest growing mental health

404
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,480
startups in the industry.
And I saw the impacts of venture

405
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,120
capital on a startup.
You know, when you have venture

406
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:42,920
funding, you have to scale to
certain degrees.

407
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:46,360
You're looking for certain
revenue, for certain changes

408
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:49,480
within the products and more
with hiring and and more.

409
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,040
We ended up having some
controversies within the company

410
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,120
because we were scaling so
quickly.

411
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,880
We had hundreds of thousands of
patients and within healthcare

412
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,240
products, you're not just
providing a service, you're

413
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,920
providing healthcare.
There is a patient at the end of

414
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,360
the line that has an illness.
There's a patient that might

415
00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:10,240
potentially have comorbidities
with multiple illnesses.

416
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,040
And so when you're building in
healthcare, you're not mainly

417
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,480
just seeking revenue, you are
also providing the highest

418
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,880
quality of care that you need.
And so when I saw, you know,

419
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,600
these controversies at Cerebral,
it really gave me this outlook

420
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,520
that there is opportunity for
mental health startups and brain

421
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,760
health startups to seek venture
funding.

422
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:34,120
But as startups such as this
start to scale, we need to

423
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:39,040
really prioritize quality of
care and the patient journey as

424
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,280
much as growth.
And I think that's something

425
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,040
that you don't see in every
industry where you don't have

426
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:46,560
health and the end of the line
and a life at the end of the

427
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,200
line.
I've really taken this

428
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,240
experience here in my journey
now as a venture capitalist

429
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,080
because we speak to a lot of
founders who want to grow and

430
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,600
scale quickly, which is a very
important component of the

431
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,480
industry.
But putting the patient, whoever

432
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,400
you're treating, at the end of
the line as the most important

433
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:08,080
priority of your product is
essential to whatever you build.

434
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,040
Is that something that can be
lost along the way of trying to

435
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,520
scale?
Yes, I definitely think it can

436
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,760
be.
You know there I talk a lot

437
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,920
about founder mental health
within the broader

438
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,240
entrepreneurial ecosystem.
And the reality is there is

439
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,200
always external pressures to be
able to grow, to reach your next

440
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,440
funding milestone or to get that
next 100,000 patients.

441
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,880
And especially as you grow your
company, you start to really

442
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,760
delegate your your experience
and your operating experience to

443
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:43,080
more people and start to be more
separated from the end patient

444
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,000
that is a part of your product.
What I like to remind my

445
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,080
founders that I speak to is that
at the end of the day, with

446
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:52,800
within all these mental and
brain health startups, we are

447
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,720
here to change the way the
illness is treated and we really

448
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,720
want to make that impact in the
patient's life.

449
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,800
Even if there is that pressure
to make a certain revenue figure

450
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,840
or to get to that next
milestone, you always have to

451
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,480
prioritize the patient.
And Caitlin, now you are a

452
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,400
venture capitalist with Simon
Ventures, where you invest into

453
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,280
brain analyzing mental health
companies.

454
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,200
Not all venture capital
investors have operational

455
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,120
backgrounds, especially founder
backgrounds.

456
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,360
How do you think that your
experience of having tried to

457
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:28,200
build a company as a founder in
the mental health space gives

458
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,880
you an additional edge?
I think it's really, really

459
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,240
useful because when you speak to
a founder, you know, they're

460
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,280
often buttoned up, they have
their numbers at hand, they have

461
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,320
the product memorized back and
forth.

462
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,080
But the reality is
entrepreneurship is messy.

463
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,440
You know, when you're an early
stage founder like the

464
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,560
precedent, see Sage Founders
that we speak to, it's very

465
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,320
exciting.
You have a big mission and

466
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,360
vision for the company that
you're trying to build.

467
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,120
But the reality is there's a lot
of uncertainty in terms of a lot

468
00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:59,280
of the challenges you will face,
a lot of the product changes

469
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:00,680
that will happen in your
company.

470
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,000
There will be stress, there will
be hiring, there will be firing.

471
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,880
There will be a lot of
opportunities for you to grow as

472
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,280
a leader.
And because of my experience

473
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,640
both as a founder, as an and as
an operator at a growth stage

474
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,640
company, I think that I have
that lived experience to both

475
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,800
advise founders with the type of
decisions they make, whether

476
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,120
that's go to market decisions,
product decisions, hiring

477
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,320
decisions.
And I also have a lot of empathy

478
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,920
towards the founder that it's
impossible to have all the

479
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,120
answers.
And that's why you should seek

480
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:36,280
out advisors for support as well
as your own teammates to be able

481
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,480
to supplement a lot of the
things that you don't know.

482
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,560
I'll ask you the flip side of
the question, which is now that

483
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,880
you have been a venture
capitalist for a while, what is

484
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,120
one thing that you have started
to value more, which you perhaps

485
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,280
didn't when you were a founder
or an operator?

486
00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:54,200
Yeah.
I think one of the best things

487
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,120
that I have really developed as
a venture capital investor is

488
00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:02,840
the ability to quickly learn so
many different industries and

489
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,360
technologies very quickly.
I think when you're working as

490
00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:09,920
an operator or founder, you're
really dialed into one specific

491
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,080
company, one specific product.
As a venture capital investor,

492
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,800
you are essentially curious
about so many different

493
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,200
questions technologies.
You are able to ask questions to

494
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,280
people that are even more
experienced than you in whatever

495
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,320
technology that you're
interested in exploring.

496
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,280
Whilst before I was more dialed
in into one specific company as

497
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,880
an investor, now if I'm
interested in a topic I simply

498
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,800
reach out to as many people that
are already dialed into that

499
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,320
industry and start to ramp up my
own understanding of the

500
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,080
technology at hand.
And I guess the natural question

501
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,000
would be, what kind of
innovations are you most excited

502
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,320
about in the mental health
space?

503
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,120
I'm incredibly excited about
neurotechnologies or

504
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,600
neurotechnology can both be
mentally invasive and invasive.

505
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:02,320
We have a couple companies that
we've invested in that are

506
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:03,920
typically more minimally
invasive.

507
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,960
Part of the interesting aspects
of neurotechnology is you can

508
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,360
essentially use electricity to
modulate parts of the brain that

509
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,240
are affected by certain mental
illnesses like treatment

510
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,640
resistant depression, anxiety
and more.

511
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,880
A lot of the patients that seek
out neurotech, they've tried

512
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,680
many medications, they've tried
so many therapies, but nothing

513
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,600
is working, hence the treatment
resistant case.

514
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,160
Neurotech offers a new modality
to quiet down and modulate the

515
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,040
parts of the brain that is
affected by these mental

516
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:36,640
illnesses.
So very excited about this

517
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,080
broader industry.
Are there any companies that you

518
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,320
want to give a shout out to?
Yes.

519
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,480
So within the neurotech space,
I'm very excited about a couple

520
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,680
companies in our portfolio.
So Motif Neurotech really

521
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,640
focused on treatment resistant
depression.

522
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,800
They've created a minimally
invasive implant that modulates

523
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,560
the part of the brain for
depression.

524
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,440
It was founded by an assistant
professor in Rice University

525
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,080
that spent over a decade working
on miniaturizing the device that

526
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,120
sends the electrical signals and
after a career in academia, was

527
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,080
ready to commercialize his
research and is now in early

528
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:12,800
clinical trials for their
company.

529
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,920
And then another company that
I'm very excited about in

530
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,800
neurotech is called Neurod.
They're very focused on

531
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,760
improving attention for folks.
So, you know, ADHD is a mental

532
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,400
illness that is specifically
impacted by attention.

533
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,360
But they also have hopes to
widen their products for anyone

534
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,000
who's seeking to have better
attention.

535
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,000
An interesting part about their
product is they also allow brain

536
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,000
scanning live.
You're able to get a data set of

537
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,840
your brain on a daily basis, as
well as the stimulation that

538
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,440
they provide to increase that
attention.

539
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,680
OK, wow, interesting.
Are there any common challenges

540
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,200
that founders are trying to
innovate in neurotech phase?

541
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,400
I think the reality is the
ecosystem is really early, it's

542
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,960
really young and there's a lot
of uncertainty, especially for

543
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,240
clinical neurotech in terms of
the regulation to get a product

544
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,400
approved and sold within, for
example, the US market.

545
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,480
And I can imagine also in the
European market.

546
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,800
If it's a consumer product, less
so.

547
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,400
But a lot of these products that
really want to target clinical

548
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,040
diagnosis, they really need to
think through regulation and how

549
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,920
to actually get that approval
for the product to reach

550
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,920
patients.
Understood Caitlin, I want to

551
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,680
take the conversation into the
subjects that you have studied.

552
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,120
So I know that at Harvard, I
guess when you were doing your

553
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,560
first degree it was in economics
and computer science and now you

554
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,160
are doing a Master's at King's
College London more in

555
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,920
neuroscience.
What motivated you to apply to

556
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,040
do about Master's?
Yes.

557
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,440
So back when I was in college, I
was a very motivated student and

558
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,840
took classes outside of my own
course load.

559
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,800
So it took some psychology
courses, took some neuroscience

560
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,360
courses, some environmental
science courses as well.

561
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,360
I knew that I wanted to land in
economics and computer science

562
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,320
because I was interested in
business, could really see the

563
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,200
applications of those degrees
for my career.

564
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,320
But essentially, I decided to
get a masters at King's College

565
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,320
London, which is an excellent
program for working

566
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,520
professionals because I was
really motivated by my time at

567
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,720
time adventures.
You know, I'd speak to founders

568
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,040
who had pH, DS in neuroscience,
professors that spent their

569
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,840
careers working in neuroscience.
And as a venture capitalist, I

570
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,560
was able to ask a lot of
questions about their

571
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,760
technologies, their products,
But, you know, started to see

572
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,680
where I wanted to gain a little
bit of a deeper understanding of

573
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,360
some core neuroscience,
foundational theories and a

574
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:39,760
better understanding of the
brain.

575
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,880
I knew that I wanted to really
dedicate my career to the mental

576
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,000
and brain health industry.
And so I thought to go back to

577
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,840
academia, really gained that
foundational understanding,

578
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,840
really get, you know, those
advanced modules into certain

579
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,840
areas of neuroscience as well to
be able to supplement my career

580
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,000
in venture and then also in
startups.

581
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,600
What advice would you give to
other young professionals who

582
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,680
are trying to stay relevant in
industries where maybe AI tools

583
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,200
are increasingly more commonly
used?

584
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,240
I'd say the reality is similar
to how AI is being increasingly

585
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:19,240
used in every industry, all the
information for every industry

586
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,040
is also available online.
You're able to search and even

587
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,120
use these AI platforms to get up
to speed with absolutely

588
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,080
anything that you're curious
about.

589
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,440
And then the other aspect of
this is really speak to people

590
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,360
who are a few steps ahead of
you.

591
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,040
It might be someone who is in
academia instead of startups of

592
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,440
someone who is a director whilst
you're still starting out as an

593
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,320
analyst for example.
You should be able to have these

594
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,960
conversations to get a better
understanding of what else you

595
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,120
need to know to pursue that part
of your career in your industry,

596
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,920
to stay as relevant and up to
date as possible.

597
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,480
And for you, Caitlin, who are
some people who have really

598
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,840
inspired you as you've begun
really delving into the space of

599
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,320
mental health and now that
you're starting your master's

600
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,400
too.
So I'm going to use a cop out

601
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,000
answer because it's people that
I work with, my general

602
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,800
partners, Greg Kubin and Mathias
Sierra Brinski.

603
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,680
Even before I joined the firm, I
actually followed their podcast

604
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,120
and learned a lot about the
psychedelic and mental health

605
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,200
industry and the types of
founders that they engaged with.

606
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,560
What I really admire about the
way they're navigating through

607
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,160
this space is, you know, they
don't have a traditional

608
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,240
neuroscience PhD background,
They don't have a master's in

609
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,400
neuroscience.
But they really learned the

610
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,440
industry by actually doing the
work, investing in the space, by

611
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,320
meeting founders, by staying as
up to date with all the

612
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,600
innovations, by creating events
in the ecosystem, and by

613
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,080
attending all these conferences.
It really shows that you don't

614
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,280
have to have an entire singular
career.

615
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,400
You can start off in one
industry and learn another

616
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,880
industry at any point of your
career as well.

617
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,160
So yes, they are definitely the
people that I admire the most in

618
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,720
in the ecosystem.
And for any of our listeners who

619
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,600
might be building in the mental
health or brain health space,

620
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,440
when should they reach out to
you or your colleagues at Simon

621
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,440
Ventures?
Yeah, so we're always excited to

622
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,320
meet early stage founders.
You know, it can even just be an

623
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,040
idea and you don't have a
product yet.

624
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,920
We'd be very excited to
brainstorm with you as well.

625
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,719
My e-mail is probably going to
be shared with the listeners of

626
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,520
this podcast.
I'm always available to discuss.

627
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,360
So whether or not you have a
deck that's ready or you're

628
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,520
still just thinking an idea,
we're excited to hear your

629
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,159
product and hear about your
company and really work with you

630
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:43,840
to build a successful and
sustainable company in this

631
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,880
space.
What type of companies would

632
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,520
Simon Ventures typically want to
be investing in?

633
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,320
We have a general thesis in
mental and brain health, but I

634
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,440
like to explain that we invest
in a wide range of technologies.

635
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,080
We do both the biotech
companies, so pharmaceuticals as

636
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,080
well as tech companies.
You know, I mentioned neurotech

637
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,480
earlier, Med devices,
infrastructure companies, care

638
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,760
delivery companies, essentially
anything that's changing the way

639
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,440
mental and brain illness is
treated.

640
00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:15,440
We are happy to work with the
founder to get to those next,

641
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,240
you know, stages of their
company.

642
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,400
And because we are such a
specialized firm, you know, we

643
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,040
focus really in this one niche.
We also like to provide our

644
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,880
network, our expertise in the
industries so we can brainstorm

645
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,240
with the founders on how to
navigate their challenges, how

646
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:35,360
to connect with the best people
to hire for their next wave of

647
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,280
growth as well anything related
to mental and brain health.

648
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,480
Very excited to chop the
founders building in the space.

649
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,520
What is Simon Ventures like to
have on board as an investor?

650
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,040
What we like to explain to our
founders is we we like to see

651
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,000
ourselves as an ecosystem
builder.

652
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:55,440
You know, when you're a founder
with us, for example, you can be

653
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,960
featured in our in house podcast
to reach more potential

654
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:00,840
customers, to reach more
investors.

655
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,800
We're also really connected with
other Tier 1 VCs, later stage

656
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,800
VCs.
So when you need help with

657
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,280
fundraising later rounds, we can
really work with you through

658
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,000
your pitch Jack, really be that
type of VC that you can be

659
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,960
honest with.
And you know, we are mental and

660
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,440
brain health, the VC.
So we do know that founders

661
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,200
experience their own mental
health journeys throughout this

662
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,240
experience.
So we like to have full

663
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:26,960
transparency with our founders.
You know, you don't have to be

664
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:28,920
completely buttoned up when you
speak to us.

665
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,000
You can be honest and raw about
your experience as you build

666
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,440
your company.
And we really believe that this

667
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,680
honesty will allow founders to
be as successful as possible

668
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,320
when they reach the next phases
of their journey.

669
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,960
I think it's great that you are
taking, you know, founder health

670
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,720
really seriously as well.
And you know, I know about

671
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:50,000
working in mental health,
whether it's as as a founder or

672
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,760
even on the investment side, it
can be really challenging and

673
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,480
demanding.
How do you personally protect

674
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,920
your own mental well-being?
Yes, so you know, I, I'm

675
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,640
studying my master's in
neuroscience and I'm also

676
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,040
working in venture.
So of course I have very long

677
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,520
hours, but one of the more
basic, the recommendations that

678
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,280
I have for anyone who is quite
ambitious is you always have to

679
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,760
prioritize rest.
You know, go down to the basics.

680
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,440
Sleep.
I used to think that I was too

681
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,160
busy to have sufficient sleep,
but now every night I make sure

682
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,760
that I have that 8 hours of
sleep.

683
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,160
And then I also incorporate a
lot of physical movement.

684
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:32,760
And so I love exercise, running,
going to the gym, and doing some

685
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,040
of the more luxurious aspects of
going to prioritize your

686
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,200
physical health, such as going
to a sauna, going to a spa.

687
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,440
You know, the body and the mind
is so integrated and connected

688
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,880
that when you prioritize one or
the other, it really has an

689
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,520
impact on the entire human body
as well.

690
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,160
So incorporating exercise,
incorporating sleep, and then of

691
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,600
course, I have a lot of
gratitude towards the clinicians

692
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,280
that I've worked with, the
therapists, the psychiatrists

693
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,360
that I meet, you know, every
single week, every single month.

694
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,880
It's been a part of my
livelihood that has allowed me

695
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,720
to build a really sustainable
career in a very demanding

696
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:12,160
space.
I love that.

697
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:17,600
And Caitlin, if you could go
back and give a piece of advice

698
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,840
to yourself when you first
started at BlackRock, what would

699
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,520
you say?
So I think when I reflect back

700
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,520
on that period, I put a lot of
pressure on myself because

701
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,200
coming from an immigrant
background on my family, coming

702
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,160
from the Philippines and now
having this salary from, you

703
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,920
know, wonderful companies such
as BlackRock, I was very afraid

704
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,760
to take the leap and try to
figure out something else.

705
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,840
I had a lot of pressure to
figure it out all on my own.

706
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,000
I knew that burnout was very
common with people in demanding

707
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,520
industry, so I felt like I
didn't need to ask for

708
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,040
professional help.
I think if I could turn back

709
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:01,080
that time and go back to that
period, I would really try to

710
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,080
build holistic healthcare, not
just one point, which is

711
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,640
medication for example, but
really incorporate, you know,

712
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,400
community support from friends
and family, therapy as well as

713
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:18,200
physical movement and diet.
So a broader overview of what a

714
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,840
holistically healthy person
could be I would interpret on a

715
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,680
day-to-day basis, rather than
just try to figure it out all on

716
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,560
my own and continue to work
hours and hours on end.

717
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,760
What is the conversation around
mental health in the Filipino

718
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,600
communities that you're most
engaged with in the USI?

719
00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:39,760
Think there's a broader
conversation about mental health

720
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,720
in the Filipino community in
America.

721
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,640
However, I talked to a lot of
people with families in the

722
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,680
Philippines and with immigrant
backgrounds as well.

723
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,280
And I think one of the hardest
parts about seeking care is

724
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,400
because it is a developing
country, a lot of people don't

725
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,080
have access to clinical care.
A lot of people can't pay for

726
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,600
therapy.
You know, some of the immigrant

727
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,360
families in the in the US don't
have really substantial

728
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,680
healthcare insurance.
To get the best types of

729
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,400
psychiatrists or therapy, or
they might not even know family

730
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,240
members or friends that have
gotten clinical care.

731
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,480
It's very difficult to start
seeking out care to start

732
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:20,800
addressing your mental health
diagnosis.

733
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:22,720
I think there's been some
change.

734
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:28,000
I often see some larger
celebrities and influencers in

735
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,040
the Filipino ecosystem starting
to talk about mental health, but

736
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,720
there's a long way to go because
there is that connection to the

737
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:39,360
stigmatized version of the
mental health type of care that

738
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,120
you can receive.
And so there's a lot of work to

739
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,320
go, but I, I'm really optimistic
that there's a lot of changes as

740
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,040
well.
That's great.

741
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,400
Thank you for sharing.
Katie, let me ask you the

742
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,200
podcast staple, which is what is
one thing that you believe will

743
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,560
allow more people to have better
mental health?

744
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,480
I'm very optimistic about all
the types of alternative

745
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,160
modalities, frontier treatments
that we're investing in at Symed

746
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,720
and, you know, apply to a more
personal basis.

747
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,760
You have to realize that there's
so many ways to address your

748
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,040
mental health.
You know, there is talk therapy

749
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,600
that's one way to address your
traumas and your diagnosis.

750
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,720
But there's all these other
treatments, clinical trials,

751
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,880
academics that are navigating
new spaces of ways to address

752
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,960
mental illnesses, as well as
companies that are emerging day

753
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,360
by day.
You know, it's excites me to see

754
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,600
the number of companies that we
are talking to innovating in a

755
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,560
space that was once highly
stigmatized and only left to

756
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,000
uncover in a more private basis.
Now there's a lot of

757
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,520
opportunities to seek care
outside of just the traditional

758
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,040
therapy methods.
So when you are navigating your

759
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,280
mental illness, when you are
navigating your mental health,

760
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,600
know that with research you can
find the best level of care that

761
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,240
can be provided to you.
Thank you, Caitlin.

762
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,800
I'm just a bonus question
because I realized I have to ask

763
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,800
you this in the news and also on
various social media platforms.

764
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,240
There have been a lot of buzz
recently about AI chat bots to

765
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,560
whatever degree being used as
therapist, whether it's

766
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,200
unstructured, so through ChatGPT
or whether through what

767
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,560
companies like Slingshot AI are
trying to build.

768
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,000
And I'm quite curious to
understand for you, what do you

769
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,560
see the part of AI therapist to
be and what role do you think

770
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:33,280
they'll play in mental health
going forward?

771
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,160
I know that this space is quite
controversial, but I'm also very

772
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,840
optimistic about the space
because like I mentioned

773
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,960
earlier, therapy and psychiatry
can be very inaccessible for a

774
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,920
large range of people.
And also, if you have a mental

775
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,200
health crises in the middle of
the night and your therapist is

776
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,040
not available, this is where
things like AI chat bots can

777
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,840
really come in and prevent you
from making certain decisions or

778
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,400
from spiraling even further.
I think that we really need to

779
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,440
collaborate, you know, in a
multidisciplinary manner to

780
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,640
create AI chat bots that are
providing both clinically sound

781
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:13,800
advice as well as to provide
guardrails for any edge cases,

782
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:18,360
any extreme cases of suicidality
of comorbidities among serious

783
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,280
mental illnesses, for example.
I think there's a lot of work to

784
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,720
be done, not just on the founder
basis of those building

785
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:28,240
startups, but for clinical
therapists and psychiatrists

786
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:31,760
that want to provide advice to
these types of companies, as

787
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,960
well as regulators that want to
ensure that these types of

788
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,800
companies can really provide the
best quality of care as

789
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,920
possible.
I think it's really early days.

790
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,760
You know, AI is developing so
quickly.

791
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,960
We have a lot to learn, but I'm
very optimistic that we can use

792
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,160
this to really, really
democratize access to care.

793
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,000
Thank you for sharing your
insights.

794
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,800
I love that Kaylin.
It's been such a pleasure to

795
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,400
have you on the Load Grow
podcast.

796
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,440
Thank you so much for having me,
Annie.

797
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,560
That's a wrap for today's
episode of the Load Grow

798
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,600
Podcast.
If it resonated with you, leave

799
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,280
a review and hit follow to help
more people to find important

800
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,480
conversations.
Keep growing and see you next

801
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:09,760
time.