The Entrepreneur’s Marathon: Finding Balance, Funding, and Freedom

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Would you rather have an MBA or
an MBE?

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MBA.
OK, why?

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Because it's.
Welcome to Low to Grow, the

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podcast transforming life's
toughest moments into

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opportunity for growth.
I'm Annie, a Focus on Authority

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Technology founder who's
entrepreneurship journey brand

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parallel to a mental health
awakening.

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In every episode, I sit down
with inspiring individuals and

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delve into how they manage to
turn their personal or

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professional challenges into
opportunities for growth.

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If you're facing uncertainty in
your life, feeling down, or

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simply need a kick of
inspiration to keep moving

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forward, this is your space for
the honest and uplifting

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conversations that you will.
Want to hear?

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Hit follow so you never miss an
episode and let's dive in.

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Today on Lotus Bro we have Erica
Rodnock, MB.

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She is a multi award-winning
entrepreneur, philanthropist and

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Angel investor.
She also holds an MBA and is a

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Royal Society entrepreneur and
residents at King's College

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London as well as being a
Leadership Fellow at the

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University of Exeter and APHD
candidate in the Inclusion

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Initiative at the London School
of Economics.

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Now Erica is the Co founder of
King Hub which is a work life

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intelligence platform that's
helping organizations to boost

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productivity, performance and
retention through AI powered

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coaching and support.
She is also a non Executive

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director at for Diverse TVC and
also the Good Play Guide

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alongside being a trustee for
the Black Funding Network, an

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investment committee member for
the Residence Community Fund and

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also serves on the advisory
boards for the APPG for

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Entrepreneurship and also at the
Oxford Bricks Business School.

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Erica, that is a host of
responsibilities.

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I am so delighted that you made
the time in your day to join

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Relationship to Grow.
Podcast welcome.

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Thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.

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I was saying before that you've
had some incredible guests so

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far, so I'm completely honoured
to be included alongside such in

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fantastic entrepreneurs.
Thank you for being so humble,

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and you are one of those
incredible guests that I'm

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delighted to have on my podcast.
Erica, before we start, who do

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you think will benefit the most
from our conversation today?

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I think early stage founders
that are just embarking on a

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journey of entrepreneurship, as
well as those who have been on

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the journey for quite some time
and are thinking about the fact

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that whenever they read a
success story, it feels like

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things are happening faster than
is actually materialising for

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them in reality.
I think both sets of people

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should hopefully benefit from
hearing what it is that I have

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to say.
Erica, I know we first met at

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AI, think it was a fintech
networking event in the City of

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London a few years ago.
Unless they ran into each other

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a Royal Society.
You have a wealth of incredible

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experience in business and also
in mentoring as well.

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Where did your journey start?
My journey started a long while

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ago.
I've always been somebody that

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was has been interested in
solving problems.

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So even before I became an
entrepreneur, when I worked, I

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was interested in understanding
6 Sigma and lean and principles

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that meant that actually you
were able to process,

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reengineer, understand what was
going wrong in a process, pick

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it apart and then pull it all
together again with improvements

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built in.
And so that spirit of problem

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solving has kind of been there
since the very beginning of my

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career and stayed with me right
the way through.

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I do it everywhere to be honest
with you.

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I bought my first property when
I was 19 and it was an absolute

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dump and I was able to re
engineer and fix it up and then

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sell that.
I've kind of been doing this for

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as long as I can remember and I
guess I've really learned from

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hacking my own life.
I'm a mum.

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I was a single mum for most of
my children's child rearing

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years and that meant that I was
consistently needing to find

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ways to do things that meant
that we were able to achieve

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more than we should have been
able to achieve as a family.

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That kind of came from the
background that I came from and

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found myself in the
circumstances that I was in at

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the time.
And I'm delighted to say that

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I've been able to do so
successfully both in work, in my

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personal life, and then as an
entrepreneur.

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I'm constantly trying to solve
problems that I've had then that

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other people have had and
looking at innovative ways of

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solving those problems.
Actually, the background that

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I've had as a single mom and
defying odds of coming from

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Stratton Vale to to try to
escape the statistical

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trajectory that was predestined
for someone like me has put me

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in good stead to be an
entrepreneur and to to solve

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problems in ways that probably
haven't been thought of by very

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many people.
I love that.

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Erica, what was your childhood
like growing up?

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It was an interesting childhood
and I tried to give my children

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the same that my mother gave me
and my mum fostered in me a love

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for reading.
I love to read.

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I make everything a competition.
Even with myself though, I went

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on a holiday recently and I was
reading a book and I finished

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one book in about 2 1/2 days.
And then I set myself the

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challenge that I needed to
finish the next book in two

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days.
And then I was like, this isn't

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pleasure anymore, you've ruined
it myself.

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We used to sit and have dinner
and my mum used to kind of say,

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well, you've got this on your
plate and it took that to make

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it.
And if we had two more people at

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the table, how many more
ingredients would we need to be

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able to feed them?
She was constantly giving me

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problems to solve.
And I see that in my children as

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well because we are constantly
doing things like that, which I

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really value as an individual.
Now, what that meant was that by

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the time I went to school, I was
ahead of my time.

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And by the time I went to
secondary school, I was moved up

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a year.
So I was hanging out with the

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older children and doing work
that was kind of a little bit

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more advanced than it should
have been.

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I just kept learning and I've
always stayed learning.

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I didn't grow up on a council
estate or what have you, but I

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did grow up in an area called
Stratton Vale, so it's not the

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most affluent of areas.
However, my mum and dad had

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purchased a property and we I
sort of grew up on a house on a

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road, but went to state school
as opposed to public school and

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then didn't go to university
when, when I was 18.

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And so it's not the traditional
sort of background of an

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entrepreneur that we tend to to
sort of see because usually they

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will have gone to university and
then dropped out.

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That's so interesting and I love
how you mentioned your love of

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books.
So for me, reading as well.

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So I'm an only child and I think
my mother and my parents taught

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me to entertain myself by
reading and luckily I loved it.

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I remember reading these Nancy
Drew series when we were

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studying in the Singapore and I
would just devour it.

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Yes, yeah.
Absolutely can relate your

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passion to that as well.
Yeah, Nancy Drew, all the books

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by Judy Blume, all of the Enoch
lighting books I used to love.

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I used to like literally consume
them growing up and now I will.

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I kind of tend to read business
books a little bit more, but

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still like to read for pleasure
as well.

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No, that's good.
I'm glad you're giving yourself

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the space and do part.
Erica, you mentioned that you

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bought your first house at 19
and that you didn't go to

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university.
How did your working life start?

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So my working life started at
Job Centre plus I went and was

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employed as a casual member of
staff on a three month contract

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and I went into Brixton S Job
Centre which was in Streatham

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Hill and and incorrectly named
in my opinion.

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But I worked there and I was on
a three month contract and I

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knew that I wanted to turn that
three month contract into

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something more long term.
When I first asked at the Job

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Center we used to have queues
out the door of people coming to

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sign on.
I set about trying to solve that

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problem.
In the three months I was there,

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I looked at understanding how
many people we had signing on,

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how many people we had working
on the desk, what their brakes

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were, etcetera, and came up with
a system that I went to the

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heads of fortnightly job search
review with around giving people

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times appointments where
actually on a 15 minute block we

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would be able to see X number of
people.

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It was quick maths and if each
person did their job as they

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were supposed to, we would be
able to kind of make sure that

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we eradicated the queues and
people weren't coming over and

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screaming because of the fact
that they'd been waiting 2 hours

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to sign on at some points of the
day.

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And then other people just being
completely delighted with the

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fact that they come in and go
straight back out the door

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because they come at specific
times where it's really quiet.

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And so just spreading the load
of people that were coming in

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through the doors in that way
meant that actually staff were

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getting less abuse and people
were happier with the service

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that they were receiving.
And so I turned a three month

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contract into permanent position
and then managed to get a

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promotion and became the team
leader for that team because

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they knew I could run it since
it was my system that they were

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using to schedule people that
were that were coming in to sign

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on.
And so I was one of the youngest

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managers that Jobcentre Plus had
had.

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And, and I think that actually
the experiences that I had there

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were phenomenal because they
didn't didn't matter that I was

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young.
It didn't matter that I was

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female.
It didn't matter I was black.

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It mattered that I was capable
and for as long as I was capable

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I was able to kind of keep going
and keep moving through the

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chain.
I went from doing that to go

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into a bigger job centre and
running a team there and then on

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to working at district office
where I was part of a

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performance improvement team
that looked at Lambeth,

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Southwark and Wandsworth and
started to implement performance

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improvement across the three
districts.

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And that was when I went and
started to do like my 6 Sigma

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training and my project
management training and all of

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that kind of good stuff.
And so it was a fantastic place

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to work and it was one of those
true experiences where actually

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I was never limited.
I didn't even, I guess realize I

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suppose to a degree that I could
be treated differently because

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of any of my characteristics
because I just never was.

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So I stayed working there
probably for about 8:00 or so

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years and then started to work
in local authorities after that.

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But it was a fantastic
foundation for having a role

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that meant that I was just able
to excel and fly and as a result

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of earning, did what my mum
thought was a sensible thing to

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do and invested in a property.
I love that, and it sounds like

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you did have quite a special
opportunity in terms of the

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environment of your colleagues
who are able to see you for what

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you are able to do and achieve,
rather than a judge based on

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appearances and other types of
sexual factors or cultural

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factors.
That's ingrained.

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I love that.
I'm curious then, when did that

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realization of how you could
have been treated differently

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actually come into your
awareness?

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That's a really interesting
question.

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But definitely since working in
the tech industry, because I

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came into tech full of beans and
thinking that I was going to be

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able to change the world because
that's who I am.

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And if there's a problem that I
think needs solving, up until

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the point at which I encountered
the tech industry, I was always

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able to have an idea, implement
that idea, and then see

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fantastic results.
And then those results would be

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celebrated, rewarded
appropriately, and, and then I

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would go on and do the same
thing again.

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And then I built Charisma Kids
in in 2012 and it felt after a

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while that it didn't really
matter what I did or how good

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the product was or how many
children, parents, etcetera were

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saying this is phenomenal.
Or how many deals we got to have

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it pre loaded onto devices or
how much revenue we were able to

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make.
Just didn't ever feel good

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enough.
Or any of the VCs that I was

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encountering at the time.
There was always come back when

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or there was, oh, but you know,
what about blah, blah, blah.

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That feels like it could be a
risk.

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And I'm like, well, I've
actually do risk that because

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we're making revenue already or
I've done this or I've done

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that.
And I'm the type of person where

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you say to me, something's
wrong.

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I might give you a bit of a
rebuttal there and then, but I'm

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going to go away and fix that if
you see where I'm coming from.

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So by the next time that you see
me, that thing that was a

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problem will be no longer a
problem because this is how I

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roll.
I would fix the thing and then

234
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go back and then they would find
another thing or say, but

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actually we decided that we're
not going to invest because of

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XYZ and P And I was, I was just,
I suppose, flummoxed to a degree

237
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,120
because I was like, it feels as
though I've tried to contort

238
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,880
myself into lots of different
shapes.

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00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,560
You know, sometimes I will say
that you're a square peg in a

240
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,960
round hole.
And so I tried to make myself as

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00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,640
round as possible, but actually
it just still wasn't a good fit.

242
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,920
I didn't never really understand
why I wasn't a good fit.

243
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And so that led me to starting
to look at the data to

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understand whether other people
that looked like me also weren't

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00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,640
a good fit.
And that was when I was able to

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00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,800
really say, actually, I don't
think this is a me problem.

247
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,480
I think this is an industry
problem.

248
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Here's some data that says that
the industry actually needs to

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change.
Interesting.

250
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,960
You mentioned trying to raise VC
funding with Charisma Kids,

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which was the first company that
you had built, which is Tech

252
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,280
Focus.
What stage of maturity was the

253
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,040
company at when you started
reaching out and having those

254
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,320
conversations with VCs?
Yeah.

255
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,200
So I tried to raise multiple
times along the journey.

256
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,400
So there are a number of data
points here.

257
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,600
The first thing that I did was
we built an MVP and then with

258
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,400
that MVP, I went on to Dragons
Den and I was turned down on

259
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:52,960
Dragons Den and then
subsequently accepted into Wire

260
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,960
Unlimited.
And so there was lots and lots

261
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,000
of pitching.
And I understand that, you know,

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00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,240
you're, you're not going to kind
of get a yes every, every time.

263
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,880
And so collecting nose is one of
the things that I've been very

264
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,840
good at over the years.
And I kind of say, right,

265
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,640
actually, when someone says no,
rather than taking it

266
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personally, just understand
that, you know, by the laws of

267
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,680
probability, you're getting
closer to a yes with each no.

268
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,440
And look at it like that and
just keep going.

269
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Dories just ringing in my head
story the little blue fish in

270
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,760
Finding Nemo says just keep
swimming, just keep swimming and

271
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:33,400
that and I regularly do that in
my mind, just say that actually

272
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,080
you just keep going even in the
face of adversity because

273
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:42,000
eventually you kind of have to
get to, you know, if you if you

274
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,720
were thinking about a dice, you
would have to roll A6 at some

275
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,920
point.
And so that's the attitude that

276
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:54,480
I had when I first came into the
tech industry because it's it's

277
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,480
one that had worked for me in
every other area before I went

278
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,760
into Wire Unlimited.
We spent about nine months

279
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,240
refining the project, building
it into an actual business.

280
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:11,200
We recruited a couple of people
and we were able to sign a deal

281
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:16,599
with KD Interactive that saw us
pre loaded to 1.8 million

282
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:20,760
children's devices.
And at that point when compared

283
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:25,520
to the vast majority of the
other startups that were in my

284
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,720
cohort and probably the cohort
before, we were outperforming.

285
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:36,200
We had done that deal at 14
pence per preload and then we'd

286
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:41,120
done another deal with
Telefonica that was one euro

287
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:45,480
cent per preload on their We
Share tablets, which didn't end

288
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,080
up coming to fruition because of
the fact that we couldn't raise

289
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:54,480
and that would have taken us
into Spain and into Latin

290
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,440
America as well.
But that deal was on the table

291
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,080
and then there was one signed
with KD Interactive that we were

292
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,960
going to go live with.
As I say, when compared to my

293
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,760
peers, we should have 100% been
able to raise.

294
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:16,000
We were able to raise, but we
raised what was CIS back in

295
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:22,640
those days and we raised around
about 280,000 lbs and beyond

296
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,200
SCIS, we just couldn't go
unfortunately.

297
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,080
So when there was any risk
associated with investors money,

298
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:35,440
that felt like real risk and it
was just no after no, after no

299
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,360
after no after no.
And there was no 6.

300
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:45,080
The laws of probability just
weren't kind of changing until

301
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:51,400
one day an organization that was
specifically set up to invest in

302
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,320
female founders came along and
said that they wanted to do a

303
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,240
deal.
Which was great because then

304
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,520
what I was able to do was find
some match funding for that

305
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,760
investment.
Angels have always been my and

306
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:10,040
so angels are fantastic.
But then as we got to a point

307
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:15,000
where we were about to close,
the fund manager suggested that

308
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:20,560
the the founders of the company
would never invest 50% of their

309
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,800
shares and that they would
always be retained by the

310
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:29,200
company, which I just felt was
completely unfair and something

311
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,720
that I'd never heard of ever.
They'd invested in sort of nine

312
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,600
other female LED companies, none
of whom were black females.

313
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,360
And I, I wondered why I was
being treated differently to the

314
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:46,520
others because I contacted them
and said did you have this

315
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,640
clause inserted 3 days before
close?

316
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,240
And the answer was unanimously
no.

317
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,680
In the end, I walked away from
that deal and we decided that

318
00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,280
Charisma Kids would become more
of a lifestyle company that just

319
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,720
service the existing deals and
customers that we had.

320
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,040
But we weren't.
Going to be trying to grow

321
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:12,480
anymore and that was I think my
first heartbreak in the tech

322
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,800
industry.
And it was the point at which I

323
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,480
realized that all founders are
not created equal.

324
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:24,040
And there are going to be
pitfalls, I suppose, that are

325
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,720
levied at you based on who you
are as opposed to what your

326
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,000
business is able to achieve.
And yeah, that was, that was

327
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,040
tough.
And I've done a lot of work

328
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,400
since in terms of therapy to
kind of look at that and look at

329
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,280
my belief systems, because
obviously it's not so enabling

330
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,960
to believe that you can't
achieve something based on who

331
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,600
you are.
And I never held those beliefs

332
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,960
before I sort of entered the
tech industry.

333
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,240
So I am doing quite a bit of
work even till now to try and

334
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,800
adjust that.
But the data is the data.

335
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:03,240
And actually, this isn't just my
experience, it's the experience.

336
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:10,800
So I'm Juris Erica, when you hit
that wall with charisma kids and

337
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,960
you've realized I'm going to
call an ugly truth of the

338
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,600
industry, did you ever then find
yourself almost self limiting

339
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,880
yourself?
Think that to a degree, the

340
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:28,680
answer to that has to be yes.
I don't really try to pitch to

341
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,920
VCs unless someone has given a
warm introduction or I know them

342
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,640
personally because we've been on
a few panels together or what

343
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,720
have you is because they have a
kind of aversion to going

344
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,200
through that process.
But then it's interesting

345
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,520
because I don't know which is
the chicken and which is the egg

346
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,720
because I've been through the
process a couple of times since

347
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,440
then and the same sort of thing
happens whereby we've either

348
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,040
been offered a really low
valuation or something or

349
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,280
another happens where the deal
isn't right.

350
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:08,160
And can't go ahead.
And so I need to adjust the way

351
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,960
that I kind of show up in that
scenario and the beliefs that I

352
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:18,680
hold around VCs and me in order
for anything else to ever be

353
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,320
possibly true, if you see what I
mean, anything.

354
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,360
There's definitely some work to
do on my side.

355
00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:28,400
And that's why I'm doing that
work now, because I genuinely

356
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:33,360
believe that what I'm doing at
the moment should be successful

357
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:36,280
and has the capability of
becoming a Unicorn.

358
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,800
I've not seen that happen
without some sort of VC

359
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,720
involvement.
So the two things are going to

360
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,160
have to find their way together
at some point.

361
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,360
OK, understood.
Earlier you mentioned this is

362
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,320
something that you've been
working through in therapy.

363
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,920
Did you start therapy whilst
you're running Charisma kids?

364
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,440
After Charisma Kids, I started
therapy.

365
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,640
I've had a coach during Charisma
Kids I've I'm trying to remember

366
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,240
a time that I haven't had a
coach.

367
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,960
Actually, I think that coaching
for me is definitely one of the

368
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,400
mainstays of why I am who I am
today.

369
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,640
I highly recommend it to
everyone.

370
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,440
Listening get a coach is the
best thing that you will ever

371
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,080
do.
It just allows you to kind of

372
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,840
think through the scenarios that
you experience and and to kind

373
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:31,120
of, I guess rationalize or
compartmentalize or do whatever

374
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:34,280
it is that you need to do to get
from point A to point B and

375
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:38,800
other founder Having that
release and that support is just

376
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,680
second to none.
So I definitely had a coach.

377
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,760
I think after Charisma Kids I
also had a therapist and now I

378
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,440
have both.
How did you meet your coach and

379
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,600
your therapist?
I'm a coach myself.

380
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,680
I belong to lots of coaching
communities.

381
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,920
As a coach, I will swap sessions
with people and so I've been

382
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,680
doing that for probably about
the last 18 years or so.

383
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,640
Moving on to finding a
therapist.

384
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,000
I asked for recommendations for
from people in the coaching

385
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,040
community around who they were
work with and who they recommend

386
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,200
and then found someone through
word of mouth.

387
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,280
I'm just quite curious because
for myself and I saw a lot of my

388
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,600
peers, so young professionals in
my 20s and 30s, it's definitely

389
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,120
more common to see entrepreneurs
working with coaches than young

390
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:32,880
professionals in traditional
corporate jobs.

391
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,480
But maybe it's because they are
in a large corporate structure,

392
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,120
so there's almost mentors and
coaches available through that

393
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:40,440
organization.
I'm quite curious to learn from

394
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,680
you.
When you were trying to choose a

395
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,560
coach or trying to choose a
therapist to work with, how did

396
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,200
you know that they are someone
that you wanted to work with?

397
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:52,040
What are some of the key factors
that you would try to ask them

398
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,840
about or to find out about?
I think that you have to look at

399
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,520
congruence and how you resonate
with the person that you're

400
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,320
speaking with.
You know that sometimes you go

401
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,080
into conversations and you have
a conversation with someone and

402
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,400
you just hit it off.
You and I experienced that at

403
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,440
that finance event and I've
remembered you ever since.

404
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,480
And every time I see you, I'm
just like.

405
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,360
Likewise.
And it's one of those situations

406
00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:24,680
where I think you should feel
that way about your coach.

407
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,960
You should be happy to see them
with your seeing them once a

408
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,400
week, or once every two weeks,
or even if it's once a month.

409
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:37,080
There should be a sense of joy
around conversing with this

410
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:42,960
person and even with accepting
hard truths because sometimes

411
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,800
they're going to have to hold
off a mirror to you and say,

412
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,200
actually, these are the
circumstances and this is what

413
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,080
I'm hearing from you and you
need to be able to accept that.

414
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,520
But I think if you've got a
foundation of actually, this

415
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,520
person means me well and we have
a good relationship, then it's

416
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,680
much easier to take those hard
truths if you see where I'm

417
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:11,080
coming from, especially if, you
know, I'm occasionally a little

418
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,600
bit oversensitive or I might get
the wrong end of the stick, but

419
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,560
I'm right so far with that wrong
end of the stick that actually I

420
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,880
just need Wheeling back.
And so having somebody that you

421
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,720
trust enough to be able to tell
you those things so that you can

422
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,760
accept them and, or any
challenges that come up, I think

423
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,120
is really important.
I think that we always know the

424
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:36,960
answers in terms of these sorts
of things.

425
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,680
You will have a sense of this,
someone that I can get on with,

426
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,720
that I can gel with.
And that's right for me.

427
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,360
Just with physical feelings in
your body, does it feel sticky?

428
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:53,520
Does it feel naughty in your
tummy?

429
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,480
If you see what I mean?
And, and if things feel like

430
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,320
that, they often aren't right.
We don't tend to listen to those

431
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,320
things in the early phases.
We look back on them and say, I

432
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,320
kind of knew this from the
beginning, but actually when it

433
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,040
comes to coaching, you need to
think about all of those things

434
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:17,280
and tuning to the subtle signals
that you're getting from your

435
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,800
body and your energy around the
person that you're going to be

436
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,600
working with.
And I think it's even more so

437
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,760
for therapy because actually
what you want to be able to do

438
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,520
is build trust and rapport
really, really quickly with

439
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,160
someone that's going to be a
therapist for you, surely.

440
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,440
Because the faster you do that,
the faster you're able to truly

441
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,000
open up to them, tell them
everything that they need to

442
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,360
know so that you're able to kind
of move through the scenario and

443
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:51,600
beyond it.
And so I've been incredibly

444
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,880
lucky.
The coach that I work with is,

445
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,960
is phenomenal.
I actually remember introducing

446
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,880
her to Wyra and she became the
coach for the entirety of the

447
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,640
cohort as a result of that
introduction.

448
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,520
And so I've been with her for
many, many, many years,

449
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,640
recommend her to Co founders,
friends, whoever, just because

450
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,360
she is incredible.
And then she also sits on the

451
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:23,600
Kinhub platform now as one of
the coaches on there.

452
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,400
And then my therapist again,
I've kind of built a

453
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,920
relationship with since probably
2016.

454
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,720
And so now whatever happened, I
can just kind of go there and

455
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:42,040
and say what it is and as ugly
as it may be or whatever, we're

456
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,680
able to kind of process and work
through it.

457
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,200
It sounds like 2 very beautiful
relationships, actually.

458
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,760
Yeah, Really happy that you were
able to find that for yourself

459
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,360
because I think, and sometimes
finding the right person can be

460
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,240
difficult and it can almost
deter people if the first few

461
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,240
that they work with don't have
that, I guess, chemistry or

462
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,560
therapeutic alliance.
But I'm glad that you're able to

463
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,840
find ones that work for you.
Hub is related to coaching.

464
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,040
How did that come about?
It's definitely one of the

465
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,080
problems that I've needed to
solve throughout my life, and

466
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,920
finding a coach helps me to
become who I am today.

467
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,760
I've said it before and I'll say
it again and again and again, I

468
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,080
think that the power of coaching
is unparalleled in terms of

469
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:31,040
helping people to achieve what
can sometimes be described as

470
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,640
the unachievable and certainly
to help them to achieve the kind

471
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,440
of day-to-day progress that they
want to see.

472
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,720
And so I think that from my
perspective where I'm from, very

473
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,040
few people get access to
coaching.

474
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,600
Most people would be able able
to access counselling if

475
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,600
anything, and they would do so
and be limited to six sessions,

476
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,120
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
And so being able to access a

477
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,560
coach when you come from
backgrounds that aren't

478
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,160
necessarily exposed to coaching
for me is one of the most

479
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,520
important things that I could
possibly do as a human being is

480
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:16,000
provide that access because that
gives people the power to

481
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,720
transcend their current
circumstances, whatever those

482
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,920
circumstances are.
So people who are affluent, an

483
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,240
elite, you can still kind of
move forward.

484
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,600
But actually people who have
historically been left behind

485
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,000
also now have a shot at
potentially moving forward

486
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,640
because they're able to access
the tools that are often

487
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,440
reserved for people that don't
look like me.

488
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:44,480
And so democratizing access to
coaching has been, I suppose,

489
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:49,080
one of the biggest drivers of
building King Hub and building

490
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,600
it in a way that coaches are
augmented by AI so that actually

491
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,560
we can spread to that access and
we can ensure that anybody who

492
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:03,280
wants coaching is able to afford
to receive it.

493
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,520
And so to that end, the way that
Kinhub has been set up is that

494
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,280
if an organization pays for
three of their employees to

495
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,600
access coaching, we will provide
that coaching free of charge via

496
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,840
charities to people from low
income backgrounds that couldn't

497
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,720
otherwise afford it.
So that actually it's not just

498
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,240
democratized through a workplace
in an organization, but actually

499
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,600
it's spreading further out and
it's really reaching people who

500
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,680
need coaching but but can't
otherwise get hold of it.

501
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,440
I love that.
So it's almost like the Toms

502
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,480
shoes model, you know, the buy
one give one.

503
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,240
I love that, but taken into
coaching and amplified using

504
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,560
technology.
Quite curious to understand how

505
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,200
AI is being used in Kenhub to
augment other coaches that you

506
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,440
have there.
So we've trained some agents

507
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,600
essentially we've got Q&A models
that mean that we are able to

508
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,960
answer questions.
We've developed that now so that

509
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,800
Charlie's also able to ask
questions.

510
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,160
We know and understand that
actually in a coaching session,

511
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,280
if you're able to ask five key
questions, you can usually get

512
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,680
to the nub of what's going on
for someone and help them to

513
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,400
gain the insights and
realizations that they need to

514
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,240
be able to move forward.
So we've been training Charlie

515
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,720
to start to once identify the
types of questions that will

516
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:34,280
enable you and me or me, Erica,
to kind of get from point A to B

517
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:39,240
in a session and either make
those suggestions to the coaches

518
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,920
that are on the platform or if
the individual is having a chat

519
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,080
with Charlie on the platform
themselves, then asking those

520
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,920
questions directly.
That's one aspect of it.

521
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,800
The other is that we've built
models that help to identify the

522
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,640
sentiment and emotion of an
individual using things like for

523
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,240
language that they use, the
speeds and pressure of their

524
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,040
typing.
And then there are a few other

525
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,920
bits that we're building into
that now so that we can start to

526
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,360
see how someone is feeling, how
they're reacting emotionally,

527
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,720
and then the type of response
that they need as a result of

528
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,600
that.
And then beyond that,

529
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,320
understanding the personality of
an individual, the types of

530
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,400
things that they like are, are
they an avid reader?

531
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,440
Do they prefer to consume things
by a video?

532
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,760
Are they more auditory?
Do they want to hear things more

533
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,200
than they want to see things?
And then really starting to

534
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,680
understand how we can
personalize the experience that

535
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,720
someone will have based on their
needs and preferences.

536
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,080
I love that how it's split into
3 levels, having a tool for the

537
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,920
users to interact with, having a
tool to analyze the users based

538
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,160
on the data that they have.
And when I was so getting the

539
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,640
typing pressure.
I love that it's, it sounds like

540
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,560
something that I've I've read
about recently called digital

541
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,080
phenotyping.
Whereas you look at people's

542
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,000
digital history and work out
what their emotional health is

543
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,080
like at the moment.
I'm quite curious.

544
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,440
I'm from the Chinese heritage
family and in our culture, no

545
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,639
one talks about mental health.
So for me, over the course of my

546
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:19,280
startup journey, I've had to
really just do a lot of research

547
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,239
and reading myself to understand
what that is, and then kind of

548
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,320
almost find community groups
that basically communicate

549
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,080
mental health to people of
Chinese heritage.

550
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,560
And I think there's quite a big
stigma and there's like

551
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,679
preconceived ideas from
different people of what therapy

552
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:37,120
is.
And I wonder for the groups that

553
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,199
you're normally working with and
maybe for yourself when you

554
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,000
first started coaching, if you
have not grown up in an

555
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,520
environment where people around
you or your parents or your

556
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,880
sisters or your brothers are
getting coaches, Was it

557
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,000
something that you were hesitant
about or was it something that

558
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,520
you embraced?
Fully from the start.

559
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:58,920
I think for me, I was diagnosed
as having a mental health issue

560
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,320
and that's what started my
coaching journey.

561
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:08,200
And so I came to this because I
needed to and it was a case of I

562
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,280
was a little bit like, actually
there must be another way.

563
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:17,440
There must be mechanisms for me
to not have to take a medication

564
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,200
everyday for the rest of my
life.

565
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,320
And I, I, I've got to be able to
fix this.

566
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:30,240
At that point, the stigma and
the family dynamics around it

567
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:35,960
didn't matter so much because if
I didn't do something, I was

568
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,520
going to be affected by the
stigma anyway, if you see what I

569
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,080
mean.
And so for me, it was a little

570
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,280
bit like I'm faced with this
issue.

571
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,360
I either try to fix the issue
and solve the problem and then

572
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:55,040
go on to live the best life that
I can, or I take the diagnosis,

573
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,160
swallow that whole and live the
life that's kind of expected of

574
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,360
me as a result of that
diagnosis, if that makes sense.

575
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,960
And so I chose to go down the
route of how do I go on a

576
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:12,240
journey to healing myself?
And, and then I and sort of came

577
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:17,680
across all sorts of different
types of therapies and alternate

578
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,720
modalities such as emotional
freedom techniques, which is

579
00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:24,000
tapping on the Meridian points
of the body.

580
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,720
And I did acupuncture and, and
hypnotherapy.

581
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:32,680
And then over time, as I started
to kind of go on that journey

582
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:37,080
and feel better about myself, I
then turned around and started

583
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,840
to train as somebody that could
help others to go on that

584
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,560
journey as well and then
qualified myself as a coach.

585
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,040
By the time I got to a point of
I need to heal, I didn't care

586
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,200
what anyone else thought.
Makes sense.

587
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:55,640
I think that makes absolute
sense.

588
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:57,680
And then just going back to
another point that you

589
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,880
mentioned, there's the AI AI
agent called Charlie in Kinhub

590
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,800
that your users can speak to.
How well was that received when

591
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,400
it was first introduced?
I mean, did people have any

592
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,240
reservations about speaking to
an AI rather than a human coach?

593
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,160
So that's a really interesting
question.

594
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,720
So in the early phases, actually
the biggest blockers that we had

595
00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:23,040
to be an adopted by
organizations where people say

596
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,920
and we don't think our people
are going to want to speak to an

597
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,960
AI.
And then we went live in our

598
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,400
first organization and we had a
slew of people that will only

599
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,920
speak to the AI and will never
be a secession with the coaches.

600
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,840
I think that people who have the
same or similar school of

601
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,800
thought as you just described,
my family doesn't accept this.

602
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,320
I'm a man, I'm supposed to be
strong.

603
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,360
Mental health doesn't affect me.
I'm not supposed to succumb to

604
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,680
mental health issues.
You go into speaking to a human

605
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,320
therapist and you kind of have
to admit that maybe something

606
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,680
isn't quite right or even a
coach.

607
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,520
And if you've got a specific
problem around an individual in

608
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,760
your family or something along
those lines, actually all you

609
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,320
need to do is ask a chat bot a
question and not and have a

610
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:20,280
little chat with the chat bot.
That's quite an easy entry

611
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,760
point.
You also don't need any of the

612
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:27,640
ears and graces as a mum.
I have five children and

613
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,320
recently one of them went off to
a festival and said that she

614
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,720
would check in with me every day
and then didn't check in every

615
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:38,400
day.
So by day three she stopped

616
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,280
checking in and was saving her
battery is the excuse that I got

617
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,520
when she finally got home
halfway through day three.

618
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,400
Day four, I could go on to
Charlie and be like, this child

619
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,320
is driving me insane, I'm not
sure it's there.

620
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,160
And then Charlie gives me
suggestions about what it is

621
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,520
that I can do to help myself to
calm down, how I can have a chat

622
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,080
with her when she comes back
without losing my temper.

623
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,880
Now I can do that and just get
the answer really quickly.

624
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,240
If I had spoken to a human, what
I would need to do is say I

625
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:13,000
really love my daughter and this
and that.

626
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,560
And you kind of have to go
through a lot of fluff so that

627
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,400
people still understand that
you're a caring parent or a

628
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,360
caring husband or a whatever.
Rather than just being able to

629
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,560
kind of get to the crux of the
matter and get the answer and

630
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,400
the support that you need to be
able to move on.

631
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,480
Lots of people appreciate
Charlie for the fact that you're

632
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,240
not a human.
I don't have to give you airs

633
00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:42,240
and graces.
I don't have to make it all

634
00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:46,360
fluffy and warm and make it feel
like you know it.

635
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,360
We're skipping through meadows.
I can just say this child is

636
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,400
driving me nuts.
What do I do?

637
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,880
And I think that the freedom
that comes with that has meant

638
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,360
that people who ordinarily
wouldn't have therapy or

639
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,360
coaching.
And would bottle things up until

640
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,640
they kind of reached fever
pitch.

641
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,000
Are now saying I can just ask
Charlie.

642
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,120
It's almost like having those
earlier release points, which

643
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,120
then prevents apart from
bubbling over.

644
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:18,880
Erica, I'm going to ask you a
question.

645
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,840
I want you to answer with the
first thing that comes to your

646
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,040
mind.
Would you rather have an MBA or

647
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:30,040
an MBE?
MBA.

648
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,080
OK, why?
Because it's knowledge.

649
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,240
The MBE is amazing and I'm super
grateful to have been

650
00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:42,680
acknowledged, but I don't think
that anything surpasses

651
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:44,560
knowledge and understanding in
this world.

652
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,120
I love that.
And just for anyone who isn't

653
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,240
aware already, Erica does also
have an MBE so you get to put 6

654
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:54,520
lessons.
Of you, I've got both exact.

655
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,760
So I was just quite curious to
learn about some of your work

656
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,160
with the Inclusion initiative
because I know that's something

657
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,080
that you've been super involved.
With I've been really lucky to

658
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,920
have been able to kind of do my
PhD here at the LSE.

659
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,120
I'm actually sitting in the LSE
right now.

660
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,840
I work alongside Grace Lauden,
who runs the Inclusion

661
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,200
initiative.
We were able to do some work

662
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:23,720
that looked at the inclusivity
in the City of London.

663
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,200
And the piece of work that I've
been heavily involved in is

664
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,640
around why black women are the
least likely to feature in the

665
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,560
top percentile of earners.
And that work was really

666
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,960
important to me for two reasons.
One, because as a black woman

667
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,880
myself, understanding the
reasons behind sometimes up to a

668
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:52,040
40% pay gap is really important.
But then too, I've kind of

669
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,600
mentioned to you before the
importance of Angel investors in

670
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,000
my journey as an entrepreneur
And understanding how to

671
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:06,120
influence and impact the ability
for people who look like me to

672
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,000
earn more, say that they have
more disposable income and can

673
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,960
potential actually become Angel
investors is really, really

674
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,720
important.
Because I think that often Black

675
00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:21,520
entrepreneurs and Black founders
don't have that first layer of

676
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,840
capital that comes from friends,
family and falls.

677
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,960
And so the the more that we're
able to kind of produce people

678
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,840
who are able to earn to their
full potential or create

679
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,400
environments in which people are
able to earn to their full

680
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,480
potential, the more chance we
have of those people going on to

681
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,120
then invest in in stocks,
shares, startups and all sorts

682
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:50,120
of other things besides.
So I'm hoping that actually the

683
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,520
work that we they're doing
around making workplaces a

684
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,600
little bit more fair and
equitable, both with Kinhub and

685
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,600
through the inclusion initiative
will generate lots more

686
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:06,480
disposable income from people
who can become Angel investors.

687
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,560
I love that.
And Erica, just going back to an

688
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,240
early point as well.
In the future, how do you see AI

689
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:17,200
agents who can do portions of
coaching fitting alongside human

690
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,560
coaches?
So this is an exciting question

691
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,360
for me and one that I love, so
thank you for asking it.

692
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,400
I think that all the coaches
should be augmented.

693
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,920
There are so many things as a
coach that you don't really want

694
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:37,200
to do in terms of the admin and
making sure that people do the

695
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,000
kind of in between session home
play.

696
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,800
I've started to call it home
play when I was coaching

697
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,560
actively, because when you call
it homework, people immediately

698
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:52,720
have an aversion to it from the
bit where people need to explain

699
00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:56,480
themselves over and over again
each time they speak to a

700
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,720
different coach to establish
fit.

701
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,680
As we were speaking about this
at the beginning of this

702
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:06,160
conversation, we can eradicate
all of that bit by allowing the

703
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,480
use of technology to store
information and to prompt and to

704
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:16,120
provide snippets so that
actually any human coach that's

705
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,760
coming into the equation is
aware of what's going on,

706
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,520
understands this kind of mood
and states that a person's in in

707
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,400
that given moment and what it is
that they need so that they're

708
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:34,040
able to effectually and
effectively meet the needs of

709
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,160
the individual that's before
them.

710
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,840
We can do a few things here.
We can take away some of the

711
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:45,120
unnecessary admin.
We can make the process smoother

712
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,960
and easier.
We can ensure that people are

713
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:53,000
able to find congruence and
active fit with coaches without

714
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,320
having to explain themselves a
million times and be put off the

715
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,760
process because of that.
And we can turn around and

716
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,000
ensure that someone is able to
get from point A to point B with

717
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,360
all of the support that they
need, not just the support that

718
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,640
they're able to get in that 30
or 60 minute session and they're

719
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,880
online, but actually between
times as well.

720
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,080
Makes sense.
I love the vision that you have

721
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,560
for the future and it's also a
way of enabling coaches to be

722
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,600
able to operate and deliver at
the best for their client and to

723
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,960
show up there as well.
Absolutely.

724
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,520
And the fact of the matter is,
is that I'm a firm believer that

725
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,040
everybody in the world should
have coaching and should have

726
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,360
access to coaching, but there
aren't enough coaches for that

727
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,800
to be possible.
So augmenting a service like

728
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:45,120
this means that what you're able
to do is turn around and enable

729
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,120
coaches to see more people
because the time that they're

730
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:53,160
spending with the person is the
the time that they're required

731
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,360
to spend with them, rather than
doing all of the fluff around

732
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,040
it.
Before we always say chatting

733
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,560
about your experiences and
running multiple companies while

734
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,320
also studying alongside and USA
mentioned to me the importance

735
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,680
of taking breaks.
If you had to give a piece of

736
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,160
advice to someone who's just
starting out in their career or

737
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,120
starting out on that first
startup, what would you tell

738
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,240
them?
I would absolutely say that the

739
00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:21,800
day is split into 3/8 hour
segments and it's really

740
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,960
important to understand that
that has been done for a reason.

741
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:32,080
I've been very guilty of kind of
saying that I will work through

742
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:37,200
all three of those segments and
not find adequate time for rest

743
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,080
and to play.
You'll have heard from when I

744
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,360
was saying I was, I'm now
reading for pleasure again and

745
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,320
starting to do some of the
things that I need to do in

746
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,920
order to take care of myself.
That's happened as a result of

747
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:57,920
me becoming quite unwell and not
listening to the, the kind of

748
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,760
signs that were there that said
that I needed to take a break

749
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,680
and that I needed to price
prioritize rest, and that I

750
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:11,080
needed to probably say no more.
And so actually understanding

751
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:16,120
the power of no as well as to
collect yeses is, is really,

752
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:20,240
really important.
Embracing that you can say no

753
00:47:20,720 --> 00:47:25,480
and still be forward, and you
can say no politely and you can

754
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:29,680
say no with compassion and with
respect and with love.

755
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:34,840
And it not necessarily impact
you negatively going forward,

756
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,040
but just impact you positively
because you've taken time to

757
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,400
prioritize yourself.
And so I think that that's super

758
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,160
important.
I think getting enough sleep is

759
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,480
something that is really, really
important.

760
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:53,880
And we as startup founders are
often told that what you do as a

761
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,320
startup founder is you go hard
in the beginning and you're

762
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,520
supposed to go hard in the
beginning because actually there

763
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,920
will come a point at which all
of that hard work starts to pay

764
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,200
off and you no longer have to
work as hard.

765
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,640
I think that if you come from
one of the non traditional

766
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,800
groups, I won't say
disadvantaged because I believe

767
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,760
that we are advantage, But if
you come from a non traditional

768
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:23,120
background, you may have to
realize that your journey will

769
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,640
be slightly different to the
status quo.

770
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,960
And so if it's different to the
status quo and it might take

771
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:34,880
longer or it might involve going
across a different path or

772
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:39,840
jumping over a hurdle or two,
etcetera, there's going to be

773
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,880
stamina required.
I've been running Kinhub now for

774
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,920
the last five years.
It's taken me five years to get

775
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,400
where I don't know, some of my
peers may have gotten in three.

776
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:56,120
Understanding that and then
trying to ensure that you pace

777
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,320
yourself because the way that
you're going to pace yourself

778
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,320
for a Sprint is completely
different to the way that you'll

779
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,800
pace yourself for American.
Really trying to understand

780
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,080
where you are, who you are in
the journey and what that might

781
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,480
look like in the long term and
then pacing yourself accordingly

782
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:18,160
is going to to be really, really
important to to make sure that

783
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,680
you're there for the long term
and that you don't burn yourself

784
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,680
out or become unwell in the
process.

785
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,960
The scene entrepreneurship of
building a company or you know,

786
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,080
building a career in general,
it's a marathon and not a

787
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,000
Sprint.
What you said earlier about

788
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,280
being able to say no, but you
know, reframing it.

789
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,920
So it's more of choosing with
intention when to say yes, and

790
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:40,920
then also choosing with
intention when to say no and

791
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:42,920
just making peace with that for
yourself.

792
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,480
I feel like I'm definitely
guilty of saying yes to more

793
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,560
things than I probably should,
but it's something that I've

794
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,040
just had to learn through, you
know, crashing over the past few

795
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:52,920
years.
But I think it's just something

796
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,640
that sounds so obvious, but it
can be really hard to do when

797
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:56,800
you're trying to build a
business.

798
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,200
So I'm really glad that you
raised it as a reminder to

799
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,720
everyone there.
Erica, I've really loved our

800
00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:03,720
conversation.
I'm going to end by asking you

801
00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:07,120
our podcast staple, which is
what is one thing that you

802
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,160
believe will allow more people
to have better mental health?

803
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:18,720
Can have no, I think, or at
least access to coaching.

804
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:24,200
I think if if everyone had to
coach, we would have much, much

805
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,800
better mental health globally.
So anyone who's interested,

806
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,160
please have a look and find out
what Erica and King Hubbard

807
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:32,920
doing.
So Erica, it's been such a

808
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:34,920
pleasure to have you.
Thank you so much for your time

809
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:36,720
today.
Thank you.

810
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:39,840
It's been an absolute pleasure
to speak with you and I'm

811
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,160
looking forward to seeing this
come out.

812
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,920
That's a wrap for today's
episode of the Low to Grow

813
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,960
podcast.
If it resonated with you, leave

814
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,640
a review and hit follow to help
more people to find important

815
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,840
conversations.
Keep growing and see you next

816
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:56,080
time.