Why Healing-Centered Leadership is CRITICAL for Digital Inclusion

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I moved to the United States to
live with my mother and her

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husband, who were very abusive
towards me.

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I nearly felt high school
because of depression.

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I think my environment was
deadly and would probably have

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completely crushed most people
you know, through my PhD thesis

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at Oxford.
Looking at digital gender gaps,

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which a lot of people don't
actually know about it actually

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digital inequalities throughout
the world and throughout the

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world, women are 19% less likely
to be.

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Welcome to Low to Bro, the
podcast transforming life's

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toughest moments into
opportunity for growth.

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I'm Annie, a Folks Under 30
technology founder whose

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entrepreneurship journey ran
parallel to a mental health

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awakening.
In every episode, I sit down

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with inspiring individuals and
delve into how they managed to

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turn their personal or
professional challenges into

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opportunities for growth.
If you're facing uncertainty in

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your life, feeling down, or
simply need a kick of

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inspiration to keep moving
forward, this is your space for

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the honest and uplifting
conversations that you will want

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to hear.
Hit follow so you never miss an

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episode and let's dive in.
With me today.

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Is Linda a BBC featured
entrepreneur, Arts Of PhD

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researcher and also the founder
of Infra Labs, where she's

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building AI native
infrastructure that's actually

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Asian inclusive?
And justice driven.

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Linda is also a founding partner
of Gossip Group, which is a

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woman LED Angel syndicate
investing into the future of

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health, happiness and humanity.
Linda was phrased between

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Beijing and the US and she had
to break herself free from a

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violent household before winning
a full bride Karen and

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scholarship to do her detail in
computational sociology at the

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University of Oxford.
Her last startup Moon.

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Was recognized by the BBC for
redefining digital ageism and

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she has been building technology
to liberate people.

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Essence Linda's story is nothing
short of powerful, and she is an

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example of the progress that can
be made when technology has

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developed through the lens of.
Healing centered leadership.

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I am generally so excited to
learn from Linda today.

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Linda, it's a pleasure to have
you.

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Thank you for having me, it's a
pleasure to be here.

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So, Linda, before we start, who
do you think will benefit the

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most from our conversation
today?

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I think anyone who is starting
their journey or who is sort of

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going through something
difficult in their personal

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lives and in wondering how to
sort of reconcile that with

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their own ambitions.
Anyone who you know shares these

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identities of, of being not a
man like a woman or non binary

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or a lesbian or gender
marginalized Asian on white,

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immigrant, etcetera can benefit
from I think learning from

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different stories like mine.
I I don't want to say that I

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would be an inspiration, but I
hope that my story can be

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encouraging and empowering for
people.

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And Linda, where does your story
start?

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Well, that's a big question.
I guess it really starts.

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I mean, where does anyone's
story start, right?

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I think it starts from that
moment of sentience, right?

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With the human experience
growing up, I was a really, I

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would say, precocious and
curious, endlessly curious and

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also very rebellious child.
And so it really starts from

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like my first memory of Beijing
with my grandmother, which was,

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I think like my memories go back
when I was 2 years old.

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And so I can remember everything
that was like really resonant

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with me.
Like with Beijing, I grew up

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next to the youthful Lake Park,
just remembering sort of my

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memories with her and spending
time with her and just being

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able to be a part of the world
and really curious about how

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social structures worked from a
really young age.

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I was born in the US, but I
spent years to five, my

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grandmother in Beijing.
So I think that left a really

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indelibly left a really deep
cultural mark on me.

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I moved to the United States to
live with my mother and her

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husband, who were very abusive
towards me.

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But I sort of, I did excel.
I, I was in the gifted kids

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program and I excelled quite,
you know, quite quickly in

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school, but I just never found
the motivation to apply myself.

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I nearly felt high school
because of depression.

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And then I ended up having to go
to a school that I didn't really

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want to go to for my undergrad
because I had really bad grades

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because of depression for my
school.

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And so I, I went to this school,
it's part of the UNC system and

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I transferred to UNC Chapel
Hill, which is like one of the

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best public university in the US
during my third year.

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And that's essentially when I
started to really study

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voraciously social systems and
infrastructure and really

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looking at power and hegemony.
So I double majored in history

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economics.
I did my honors thesis on

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protest events in in China,
really focusing on rebellion and

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power.
I think these are really big

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things in my life that I was
really, really concerned with.

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And I think that's when my
academic journey really started.

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I ended up winning the best
honors thesis award.

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I was the only woman of color to
ever like the first one in the

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to have wanted in the history
department.

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And then I got, you know, I was
like top 5% of the class.

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I got a scholarship to Columbia
to continue on in my master's

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majoring in computational
sociology.

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And at the time, I thought that
I would just continue into just

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China studies because at the
time my dream was to become a

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presser in China studies.
A lot of everything that I cared

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about, and I mean still do was
had spin around liberation and

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decolonization.
And yeah, so at the time I was

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just really fully believing that
I would sort of dedicate my life

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to to decolonizing China.
And I self-taught myself

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Mandarin Chinese like during my
undergraduate and became fluent

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in like 2 years because I was
just like I was so committed to

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that.
And then I went to Colombia and

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obviously things never turn out
the way you plan.

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I ended up pivoting into
computational methods, so

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looking at AI and machine
learning and I became really

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intrigued by that.
And my supervisor at the time,

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Professor Yao Lu, she is in
sociology at Columbia.

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She's done like a ton of stuff,
cross cutting statistics and

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STEM fields as well as sociology
and critical theory and China

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studies as well.
So I first authored a paper on

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gender bias in government media
attention to protest events in

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China using big data from Weibo,
which is a micro blogging

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platform in China.
It's very popular.

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It's probably the most popular
social media at the time.

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That was really fun paper to do
was also really difficult

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because I didn't have any kind
of formalized training in

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quantitative methods or machine
learning or any of that.

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So I just sort of taught myself
on the on the fly.

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And I realized that that's
actually how I excelled because

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I love being challenged in these
environments or being pushed to

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learn and I love learning my
brains like a sponge.

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So I just soak things up really
fast.

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Through that.
I realized actually because we

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were dealing with a lot of
unstructured data from social

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media, I saw that methods that
exist in machine learning and

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natural language processing,
they're not made for non

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European, especially non
Anglocentric context,

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non-english context.
To make that really concrete.

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For instance, if you want to
analyze like any kind of post,

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social media post in Chinese, in
order to feed it through the NLP

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algorithm, you have to add
spaces manually between words to

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make it seem more like English
so that the algorithms can

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recognize what's going on.
And so I was like, that's

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really, that's just not right.
And so I ended up being inspired

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by that.
I wrote.

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So I was the youngest invited
contributor for the Oxford

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Handbook to write about
declining computational methods

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and really pushing for this
theory of Chinese computational

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sociology, centering Chinese and
of course other non European

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languages as a standard for
creating a framework for AI and

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for natural.
Interesting.

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Before it was cool because it
was like, it's like 4 to five

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years ago.
It was a long time ago.

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I didn't realize it was really a
big deal until people were

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telling me that it's a really
big deal because I just really

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cared about the topic.
And then later on, I took a gap

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year and I ended up coming to
Oxford on the Clarendon

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Scholarship, looking at digital
inclusion for for women and

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later on expanding into age
inclusion as well because so

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many older folks are excluded in
the age and gender are so

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intricately intertwined.
And then building out Hmong and

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then now Infra Joy Labs, I think
that's when I realized it's all

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come full circle because
everything I've done has been

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really intellectually pet
driven, empowered.

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I think being a PhD at these
institutes that have really been

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dedicated to this kind of work
and also Centers for, you know,

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violence and domination as well,
sort of these tensions that

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exist.
But being in in an institution

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like Oxford and then, you know,
Columbia beforehand, everything

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that I've done has been really
pushed with intellectual rigor.

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So I feel quite privileged to be
in a space like that where what

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I'm building, the venture I'm
building is not really like a

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lot of the retail startups that
you'll see where it's just for

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the sake of making money, which
there's nothing wrong with that.

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But I think being in the space
of deep tech and, and creating

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the first global standard for
age inclusion on a digital

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platform, it really is research
heavy, R&D heavy and, and very

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much so intellectually rigorous.
It's just sort of come full

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circle.
That's and that's sort of my

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story in like a small nutshell.
Wow, that's a very action-packed

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story for a very small, but
congratulations on all that you

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have achieved.
Linda, one question for you, if

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you think back to when you were
5 or say when you were, you

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know, 5 or 6, would you have
expected to be doing what you

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are today?
And also, would you have

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expected your mission and your
journey to take you across to

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the different institutions that
have really helped to shape your

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identity in academia since?
I love that question.

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I, I don't think that I would
have expected any of this when I

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was really young.
And this is something that I've

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done a lot of research into as
well is the idea of giftedness,

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which is a kind of
neurodiversity that sort of alga

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mates a lot of like ADHD and
autism spectrum, etcetera.

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When I was young, they have this
like meter for symptoms of what

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giftedness entails.
And one of them is like being

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really conscious of like you vis
A vis the universe from a really

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young age.
And so when I was like six or

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seven, I remember I would look
out the window in the car at the

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at the clouds and I would think
I'm, I would have this feeling

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like I'm here for greater, like
a much greater purpose.

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And it's not something a child
is really supposed to feel.

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I just had this feeling.
I knew that it was meant to be

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doing something great it at a
global stage, but I didn't know

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what it was.
I was a piano prodigy growing

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up.
So I studied piano from the age

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of five and I like master of box
inventions by 7.

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I was scouted by local media
because at the time we were

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living in Starkville, Ms. in the
US, just like the Deep South.

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But I was so scouted by media
for my piano playing recitals

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when I was like 6 or something.
It was quite, I mean, a lot, a

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lot was happening always.
But, but it was also, like I

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said, at the same time, it was a
really, you know, violent

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environment that I grew up in.
So I was like surveilled and and

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forced to practice a certain
number of hours a day because I

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was, you know, my piano teachers
all believed that I would go on

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to Juilliard and become like a
world class pianist.

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But for me, it was a really
strange experience because I was

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just a kid and I was just doing
what I liked.

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But people, adulthood put all
these sort of expectations on to

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me and tell me all these things
that I didn't understand what it

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meant at the time.
I thought that I would be a

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piano teacher when I was
younger, when I was five, I

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think I would like, I want to be
a piano teacher.

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But I also had knew that I was I
was destined for something much

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bigger than me, like something
global.

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Yeah.
Something extremely meaningful.

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And that sense of purpose.
And this might sort of cross

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them to another question you
asked, but this sense of purpose

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carried me through everything
that I did and everything that I

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had to.
I ended up, you know, later

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would would survive like all the
kinds of physical and and

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00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,640
emotional abuse that I had to
survive.

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00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,120
That sense of purpose is what
carried me through everything

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00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,160
and also what got me into a full
scholarship at UNC Chapel Hill

230
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:47,800
and then a full scholarship into
Columbia and then a full

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00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,800
scholarship to Oxford.
Because I just was never afraid

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00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,960
to think extremely big no matter
what people around me said.

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00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:54,480
And I always ended up being
right.

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00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,800
So I was like, I don't, I don't
care what people who have small

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00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,040
minds think.
But if you asked me like a few

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00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,120
months ago, like a year ago,
what do you think you would be

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00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,680
doing something in aging and
tech?

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00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:07,760
I'd be like, what the hell?
Those are things I've really

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00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,240
ever considered.
And when I came into Oxford, I

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00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,760
was certain that I would become
a hotshot professor.

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00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,120
Like that was my dream.
I wanted to become like this

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00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,600
hotshot professor in China
studies being cool like optical

243
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,040
work and gender and protest in
China.

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00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,440
And you know, maybe later on I
would end up getting a

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00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:30,640
professorship at like an IV or I
would end up going to China to

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00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,920
like a 985, which is like one of
the about which is one of the

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00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:35,600
more prestigious universities in
China.

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00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,840
And that would be my bread and
butter because I just love the

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00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,400
intellectual environment so
much.

250
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,800
But then I came to Oxford and
that would that also coincided

251
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,920
with me escaping this really
abusive environment for good.

252
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,360
And then cutting myself off from
that scholarship allowed me to

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00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:56,760
liberate myself a lot of the
self-imposed limitations or

254
00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,280
restrictions on who I was and
what my identity was.

255
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,200
Because at the time, I had
always been told and also always

256
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,320
thought that I can only do well
in an academic environment

257
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,880
because I don't like a corporate
9 to 5, right?

258
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:10,960
I think I want to explore so
much more.

259
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,520
I want to be in touch with the
world.

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00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,960
I want to meet people like you,
Annie, and you have done things

261
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,280
in society who care about real
world impact, whereas like you

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00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,280
see in academia, a lot of people
do and a lot of people also

263
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,680
don't.
And that really bothered me.

264
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,120
And so I ended up going into
entrepreneurship completely

265
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:30,600
exceeding all of my
expectations.

266
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,600
I never expected myself to do
anything that I did with Hmong

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00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,360
or with girl pain gossip group
infantry lats.

268
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,440
I just never expected it from
myself.

269
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,360
I don't think I, the younger me
would have imagined that I would

270
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,240
go into this space, although,
you know, I think it's, it is

271
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:45,840
interesting.
There was a chance for me to

272
00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,760
become a child star when I was
younger because of my playing

273
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,320
and also just like really
extroverted quite as the bubbly

274
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,640
personality that I could have
gone on to like child acting and

275
00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:58,160
I didn't.
Why not?

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00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,480
One of them is like my hunger
for knowledge and intellect is

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00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,800
too strong for me to enter the
entertainment industry.

278
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,920
And also, and I, I think growing
up like I had, I had really

279
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,760
powerful instincts about what
kind of space would be safe for

280
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,360
me versus what kind of space
would not be safe.

281
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,560
And I think I was especially
attuned because I grew up in

282
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,480
such an abusive environment that
I was extremely, extremely, and

283
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,360
already more sensitive than I
already was to power and

284
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,880
hierarchy and hegemony and the
effect that it would have on me.

285
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,960
Obviously, it wasn't completely
my choice because my my parents

286
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:33,440
had ultimate authority over
everything I did.

287
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,560
But they're also like, they're
Chinese, right?

288
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,240
So they're not going to agree to
entertainment.

289
00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,680
I think that actually ended up
working out in my favor.

290
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,520
Growing up in America, you see
what entertainment industry does

291
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:44,840
to people who go through it,
right?

292
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:46,720
They're assets.
They're not people.

293
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,120
And they're certainly not going
to be the boss of themselves.

294
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,760
They don't hold much power in
the larger, you know, industry.

295
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,920
And now I can say retroactively,
I can say sort of quite, you

296
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,840
know, with with more eloquence
that, you know, I wouldn't

297
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,720
choose the entertainment
industry route or the creative

298
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,680
route because it's not
unfortunately an industry that

299
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,960
allows for autonomy or
sovereignty over yourself or

300
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,120
your thoughts.
And it's certainly not an

301
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,120
intellectually driven space,
whereas academia is low paid or

302
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,040
whatever, but it is a space
where your, your selfhood is

303
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,680
relatively much more protected
than if you're going on to

304
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,720
become, you know, like a singer
or performer.

305
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,440
As a performer, you really are
at the behest of the viewer.

306
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,800
And the viewer tends to be a
straight white male, especially

307
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,840
if, you know, we're Chinese
women or we're Asian women or

308
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,720
women of color in these spaces,
we're facing so much

309
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,440
objectification and
sexualization, dehumanization.

310
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,360
And that's just not, I'm not
going to tolerate it at all.

311
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,200
I think from the way that you're
talking yourself, awareness has

312
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,640
always been quite strong, even
as when you were a younger

313
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,560
child.
And as you said, it is lucky

314
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,040
that when you had the
opportunity to become a child

315
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,920
entertainment worker, your
parents actually made the right

316
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,120
decision for you.
You mentioned this household

317
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,000
environment that you grew up in.
How did that affect you when you

318
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,120
were, you know, going through
school or navigating that

319
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,200
cultural change as well when you
move from China with your

320
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,000
grandma to the US?
I think it affected absolutely

321
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,520
everything.
I ponder on this often.

322
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,000
One thing I do is I think a lot
like I overthink, but I, I think

323
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,360
about this all the time.
I also self-taught time as

324
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,520
astrology at at one point.
So I would think a lot about

325
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,520
like fate and destiny and like
also, you know, I'm, I'm quite

326
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,320
like a Taoist slash Buddhist
slash agnostic, quite spiritual.

327
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,280
So I mean, but I also study
sociologies and I come from a

328
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,120
Marxist tradition.
A lot of the frameworks to

329
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,400
understand society and social
systems tends to be oriented

330
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,720
towards systems you don't really
consider too much agency of an

331
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,840
individual.
And I've been trained in that.

332
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,640
There's a phrase in Chinese
singles union which means a

333
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,720
person's character determines
their fate, right?

334
00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,680
And that's true to a huge
degree.

335
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,320
And how much of your personality
is Santian versus Holtian, like

336
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,560
comes from you versus it comes
from the environment you're in.

337
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:12,280
I think my environment was
deadly and would probably have

338
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:16,560
completely crushed most people,
most kids growing up.

339
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,440
And it's not like a brag or
anything, it's just the truth.

340
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,400
But then I think because of my
particularly strong character, I

341
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,040
was able to get myself through
it so that I had the wherewithal

342
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:31,120
to use that environment and make
myself stronger from it.

343
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,200
But I don't really like to
credit the environment with with

344
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,880
much because it was a hurdle on
on everything in my life.

345
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,080
It's been a hurdle in like
intimacy, it's been a hurdle in

346
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,800
relationships, been a hurdle in
my academics.

347
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,440
Because of that environment, I
nearly felt high school.

348
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,760
I constantly got told by
teachers that I went to after

349
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,280
when I had to go to an
undergraduate space I didn't

350
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,360
want to go to and ended up
having to transfer later on.

351
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,800
Teachers constantly told me, you
know, they were surprised that I

352
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,800
was at this place.
They told me they thought I

353
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,120
should be in a place like
Harvard or Yale.

354
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,160
And they just made me feel
terrible about how I felt like

355
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:04,760
I'd failed myself.
When actually it's because of

356
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,800
that environment that it
prevented me from being able to

357
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,720
fully engage in my studies.
It prevented me from fully

358
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,000
engaging intellectually and
emotionally and creatively and

359
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,920
artistically.
And it, it stoppered me in a lot

360
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,680
of ways, I think from like
reaching my potential earlier.

361
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:25,160
But I also think on the flip
side, because I am a survivor.

362
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,040
And as someone who is also queer
and, and, and Chinese and, and a

363
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:34,640
woman and lesbian, I think the
resilience that I've cultivated

364
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:40,440
in myself via those really
traumatic and terrible

365
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,880
experiences give me a huge
advantage compared to people who

366
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,520
grew up with a silver spoon,
right?

367
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:53,160
Because I very used to being
denied my selfhood.

368
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,240
I grew up in an environment
where my intelligence and my

369
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,280
worth was constantly put into
question.

370
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,040
I was constantly threatened and
coerced.

371
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,200
And you know, with financial
coercion, it's a sink or slim

372
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,800
kind of environment.
I had to develop really strong

373
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,760
abilities to persuade, really
strong ability to sell, really

374
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,600
strong ability to believe in
myself.

375
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,880
These qualities are things I've
cultivated in myself.

376
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,000
I don't really find what the
startup world or what the

377
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,640
investment world terms failure
to be failure because it doesn't

378
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,680
feel like anything to me because
I've already been through much,

379
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,520
much worse.
What I mean by much worse is

380
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,560
where my life or my death is
literally on the line as a kid,

381
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,400
right?
The kinds of failures that

382
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,960
people talk about LinkedIn with
like startups or whatever, It

383
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,800
just literally just nothing.
It's not something that I I

384
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:40,640
would really ever wish on
anybody.

385
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,520
And I don't think anyone should
ever really have to have it

386
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,600
because you pay a really steep
price for this kind of strength

387
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,440
and for this kind of wisdom,
right?

388
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,600
And it's certainly not fair.
It's just what I was dealt with

389
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,320
and I had no control over it.
But it is it is what I have.

390
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:02,960
You're very eloquent in saying
exactly what your experiences

391
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,000
have allowed you to do or have
enabled you to learn about or

392
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,320
discover in yourself.
Has that always been the case,

393
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,880
Linda, or is this something that
has come to you in the more

394
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,040
recent years?
If you're referencing my ability

395
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,200
to sort of look at it in a more
balanced way, I would say, yeah,

396
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,520
I would say that I, you know, I
was aided by some, I wouldn't

397
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,800
say amazing therapists, but
they're like good enough that

398
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,480
they're like, helpful.
Sometimes you just need a space

399
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,280
to just cry and talk about
things.

400
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,280
It's taken me like a year or two
to reconcile with the

401
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,760
experiences.
For the longest time, I just

402
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,200
felt like I didn't grow up in a
normal home.

403
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,160
I don't have a secure attachment
style.

404
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,320
I find it difficult to allow
people into my inner sanctum

405
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,560
emotionally, and that makes me
inferior as a person.

406
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,840
And I think this would just sort
of add on to like all of the

407
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,560
other sort of divergences that I
already have, which is like, I'm

408
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,960
extremely intelligent, extremely
gifted.

409
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,560
I always felt like I couldn't
relate to the kids around me

410
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,520
growing up and I always felt
alien and, and whatever teachers

411
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,240
would compliment me, it always
just made me feel more isolated.

412
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,640
And so that kind of isolation
that comes with multiple layers

413
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,080
of exceptionality.
You could call it in like the

414
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:16,240
most literal sense, the word
being exceptional as being

415
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,040
outlier, right?
Like I think that was the most

416
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:22,120
painful part for me was like
reconciling with the loneliness

417
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,680
of acknowledging that, oh, I've
been through this and most

418
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,720
people haven't and most people
wouldn't be able to survive it

419
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,680
and I did and most people
wouldn't be able to heal from

420
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,720
it, but I did.
And then what comes after is

421
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,240
like, oh, actually, then there's
am I just all alone?

422
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,200
Am I just like inferior?
Am I just weird?

423
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,920
Or am I just like, there's
something like, I'm just so

424
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,680
different that I will never find
a community through that lens

425
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,520
and through that sort of like
emotional architecture.

426
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,960
It took me like a year or two to
really accept how different I am

427
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,320
from everyone around me.
It's a journey for sure.

428
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,080
And a lot of my friends have
told me that I should write a

429
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:55,920
memoir or like start now.
And I was like.

430
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,720
If you ever do you write a
memoir, sign me up to it.

431
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,680
It will come with your
experiences, which is very

432
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,880
energetic.
That's a word that I would use

433
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,440
just in terms of what you have
been able to achieve with being

434
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,680
the piano and also your
intellectual ability down the

435
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,000
sober countries that you have
lived in.

436
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,680
But I think it's also the
revelations that you have about

437
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,120
yourself.
But then takes place 2 words

438
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:17,840
really popped out just now the
themes that you have experienced

439
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,840
in your lives, isolation or
loneliness.

440
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,840
I realized that these are also 2
themes that older people or more

441
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,000
elderly people in our society
would also feel.

442
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,240
And I just wanted to ask you,
with your work, with your first

443
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,520
startup month, what prompted
that?

444
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,320
And also, what did you learn
about the elderly people in our

445
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:39,080
society that surprised you?
Yeah, yeah, I love the Segway.

446
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,960
There are multiple things that
prompted me to start Mung.

447
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,640
And I'll start with something
that's more concrete, like

448
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,800
intellectual development, you
know, through my PhD thesis at

449
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,240
Oxford, looking at digital
gender gaps, which it's actually

450
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,400
quite a topical area and a lot
of people don't actually know

451
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,480
about it, Potentially digital
inequalities throughout the

452
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,600
world.
And my research draws from the

453
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,920
Digital Gender Gaps project,
which is led by my supervisor

454
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,520
Ready Kashyap.
She's a world leader in this

455
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,240
field.
Throughout the world, women are

456
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,360
19% less likely to be able to
access mobile Internet than men,

457
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,480
and so that's the digital gender
gap, right?

458
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,800
Through looking at that work and
establishing my own theory of

459
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,560
how online and offline gender
inequalities interact, which I

460
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,960
term digital gender circularity,
I became really cogently aware

461
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,960
of how age and gender are
intimately intertwined.

462
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,160
And there's no way that you can
really separate the two over the

463
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,920
course of a women's lifespan.
And cisgender women will tend to

464
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,320
live longer than men.
You experienced a double

465
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,720
marginalization across both
gender and age.

466
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,600
That was the intellectual
motivator for for among the

467
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,840
emotional sort of driver was
that my grandmother, who I'm

468
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,080
extremely close to, during the
pandemic, she had kidney

469
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,160
surgery, and she nearly didn't
survive the recovery because she

470
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,640
didn't know how to use her phone
to order groceries.

471
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,000
She couldn't find the grocery
platform accessible for herself

472
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:53,920
and there was no one to really
help her.

473
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,040
And we had to beg family
connections to go and stay with

474
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,680
her to support her through the
recovery.

475
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,760
It was really strict time as
well because of the locked out

476
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,040
right.
And that left a deep mark on me.

477
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,400
I think everything clicked into
place, you know, as well as my

478
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,560
own experiences with digital
access, growing up in in a

479
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,920
really abusive home where my
computer and my phone could just

480
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,520
be taken away at a moment's
notice and you lose that sense

481
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,480
of connectivity with the world.
You cease to exist in the world.

482
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,560
And that feeling of just utter
isolation I could relate to.

483
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,240
I can emphasize it really,
really strongly.

484
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,200
And all those things put
together is what drove me to

485
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,800
start among.
I just wanted to do more with my

486
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,520
PhD than just do research or
just talk about it.

487
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,000
I think Oxford is amazing.
My college is amazing.

488
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,760
They're extremely supportive and
so generous, but but I just got

489
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:45,000
really sick of this way of doing
things in academia where all

490
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,760
you're doing is just pointing
out problems and you're not

491
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,240
putting any kind of effort into
changing what you're seeing.

492
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:56,560
It just ends up feeling like a
circle of people just exchanging

493
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,240
papers, not actually doing
anything concretely to affect

494
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,760
society and, and completely out
of touch with the people they're

495
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,440
talking about in their studies.
And I got really tired of that.

496
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,880
And so I ended up thinking, what
if something was done about

497
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,880
this?
I became interested in startups

498
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,520
because a couple of my friends I
knew had their own nonprofits or

499
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,600
companies.
Why not give it a try?

500
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,040
I ended up starting Mung and,
and it was just unexpected that

501
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,800
we ended up getting covered by
BBC as well because at the time,

502
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,640
like when we started it in the
very beginning, everyone was

503
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,720
telling me this is an amazing
problem.

504
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,200
It's really cool.
But have you just considered

505
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,680
doing a nonprofit?
Like it's not profitable.

506
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,520
But I just didn't really care
what people said because I just

507
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,320
knew that it was what I cared
about and it was important to

508
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,280
me.
And it was also this huge gap,

509
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,960
not only in terms of digital
inclusion not being well known,

510
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,720
but also the fact that older
consumers are the fastest

511
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,160
growing segment in the world and
also the most financially

512
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,440
powerful.
What's interesting is that, you

513
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,040
know, see the same about semtech
and women who are consumers.

514
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,680
We are extremely powerful
financially as well.

515
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,160
And I think older consumers are
just compounded in that.

516
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,320
But because of these cultural
hegemonies that exist because of

517
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,600
ageism, companies are actively
going against their, you know,

518
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,160
profit incentives to leave these
users out.

519
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,560
You know, whether that's
intentional or not, it's just

520
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,080
what's happening, right?
Everything is being designed for

521
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:15,680
Gen.
Z or Gen.

522
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,560
Alpha, either out of inertia or
just this passivity towards

523
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,000
inclusion, this apathy towards
inclusion.

524
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,760
I just find that unacceptable.
I really love how you are taking

525
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,320
the time and initiative to do
that.

526
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,680
And I love how you also taking a
step away from academia, which

527
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,360
for so long has been about that
you had seen yourself in, but

528
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:38,040
now you're actually taking
scientific research and ISO

529
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,040
observations and turning them
into solutions.

530
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,320
And I think that actually
reflects the action orientated

531
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,800
personality that you have and I
think that's quite a beautiful

532
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,200
thing to see.
Question, you spoke about

533
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,000
healing centered leadership.
What does that look like in a

534
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,280
real world and especially in a
tech focused industry?

535
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,480
A lot of what we see in Silicon
Valley and like tech Bros

536
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:03,120
etcetera, move fast, break
things kind of model is

537
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:05,240
unsustainable.
And obviously there's been

538
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,080
people who are much more
articulate than me and much more

539
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,000
well learned than me to take
this extremely eloquently.

540
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,400
But tech has this immense power
to influence people's lives.

541
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,280
And people who are at the helm
of these big tech corporations

542
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:27,760
don't really appreciate the role
of technology in society and

543
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,640
marginalized communities.
They treat tech and investments

544
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,280
and money like it's a game.
And I understand, you know,

545
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,680
you're just playing the game or
whatever, but they just don't

546
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:38,920
know what the fuck they're
doing.

547
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:44,760
And they have just been standing
on the shoulders of not giants,

548
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,480
but corpses that they've
benefited from for, for so many

549
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,400
decades, centuries, right?
The social injustice that allows

550
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,640
them to continue to be so
frivolous in the way that they

551
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,160
are pushing society towards the
direction that is catastrophic

552
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,240
for everybody.
Healing Centered leadership is

553
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,560
that we're not going to sing
Kumbaya around a fireplace and

554
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,920
we're not going to be a cliche
and a new age or whatever, but

555
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:14,480
we are going to focus on what is
actually healing for our

556
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,720
society, for our economy, for
our markets.

557
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:23,880
Really focusing on purpose in
what we're doing and being

558
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,200
really intentional about how we
are creating our technology.

559
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,800
And also the kinds of
stakeholders and the kinds of

560
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,960
people we allow into
collaborations with us into

561
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,280
pilot partnerships into our cap
table is really important

562
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,680
because I, I think just like
being in the tech space and also

563
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,560
who's like really sensitive to
power imbalances.

564
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,840
You just notice that people are
just, they're just raising to

565
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,040
raise.
It's just this hype cycle over

566
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:48,240
and over again.
I don't think there's anything

567
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:49,720
wrong with with wanting to raise
money.

568
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,840
I don't think there's anything
wrong with moving fast as long

569
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,520
as you're not actively harming
people.

570
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,760
It, it just, it feels like so
much of the tech world is

571
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,880
oriented around this hype bubble
and this hype bubble never

572
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,040
actually stays and it doesn't
leave any kind of real legacy in

573
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,600
the world.
Something that's huge for me is

574
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,200
legacy.
It's creating something that

575
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,800
will outlive me and my Co
founders and our shareholders.

576
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,800
And obviously I think profit and
evaluation, etcetera.

577
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,400
I appreciate that these are
important.

578
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,520
They're also important to me
because I want to be paid for my

579
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,560
labor and I want investors who
are coming in and bringing their

580
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,400
resources to also see, you know,
increases in the valuation and,

581
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,120
and and their stock holdings.
I'm also an Angel investor

582
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:36,640
myself.
So I completely understand that

583
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,400
perspective, but I want to build
something that's meaningful and

584
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,640
most importantly, in the process
of building it, I want to feel

585
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,280
fulfilled and nurtured and
healed by what I'm doing.

586
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,800
Like genuinely passionate,
genuinely joyful.

587
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,760
And This is why we're called
infra joy, you know, joyful

588
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,680
infrastructure, but genuinely
joyful at the thought of, of

589
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,760
doing what we're doing and not
doing it for anybody, but for

590
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,160
end users and ultimately our own
mission and our own purpose.

591
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,720
I think that's what healing
leadership means for me.

592
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,400
It, it, it's both internal and
also external when you're sort

593
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:11,920
of healing yourself in the
process.

594
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,040
And two, you're also healing the
people that you're serving the,

595
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,560
the people around you.
We are serving, you know,

596
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,280
development teams and supporting
them and making their platforms,

597
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,200
their digital infrastructure
truly older age inclusive.

598
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,240
It is a really healing and and
really joyful experience to work

599
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,440
with these teams and they
genuinely feel really powerfully

600
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,960
about what we're doing as well.
We're helping them increase

601
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,880
revenues and they're also
supporting us right as a as a

602
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,520
customer.
That's a win win situation and

603
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:45,320
it's never a 0 sum game.
We're also building legacy

604
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,080
because there is no global
standard for older age

605
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,720
inclusion.
You know, we're first in this

606
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,080
green space, and it is just
deeply fulfilling to be able to

607
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,920
do this after we enshrine these
standards into policy.

608
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,920
Every company that comes after
us has to follow what we built.

609
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,080
And they are also going to make
platforms that are better and

610
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,680
easier and usable for not just
older consumers, but just

611
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,000
everyone.
Love that because I think for

612
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,680
you it's the social impact and
it's actually meaningful social

613
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,160
impact delivered through this
mechanism, which could be your

614
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,920
current startup or it could be
the movement that potentially

615
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,320
grows around it.
For someone who might not be

616
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,040
familiar in the tech space like,
what does it actually mean to

617
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,040
build infrastructure that is age
inclusive?

618
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,680
Making infrastructure inclusive
means that you're making

619
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,720
infrastructure from day one with
these people in mind.

620
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,040
You're actually taking them into
account when you're building

621
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,600
something.
If you want to think, for

622
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,640
instance, about seating in
public transportation, a lot of

623
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,840
it was built for white CIS
males.

624
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,120
And so a lot of us will find it
really uncomfortable because of

625
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,800
the way that it's sort of
slanted or arched.

626
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,720
It's not really for someone of
our height or it's not even just

627
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,040
built for a woman period.
It's it's sort of a similar

628
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,040
concept with infrastructure.
You go on a website today, the

629
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,120
text tends to be really small
size.

630
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,600
And so anyone who's older that
is already just like the most

631
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,560
basic kind of requirement needed
to accessible to someone who's

632
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,920
not just older age, but it's
just vision impaired in general.

633
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,960
Because I'm nearsighted, I work
contacts and I found a lot of

634
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,200
websites really difficult to
access because of this, right?

635
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,480
That's sort of one of the really
basic principles of inclusive

636
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,480
design is that you're designing
with the end user in mind, like

637
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,800
really in an intentional manner.
By infrastructure, we were

638
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,400
talking about a lot of the basic
foundations of of platform from

639
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,000
the code stack right behind a
website.

640
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,080
There's a lot of code, there's a
lot of templates that go into

641
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,280
creating what we see on the
screen.

642
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,320
When you go on a website, is
there just too much information

643
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:46,840
on there?
It's really hard to sort through

644
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,360
the logical flow of a checkout
for someone who is older, for

645
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,760
someone who is coddly impaired,
which is highly correlated with

646
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,160
aging.
Some of this has been covered by

647
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,720
existing accessibility policies
like the EAA is coming into

648
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,280
effect on the 28th of June, but
it's just not sufficient because

649
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,400
it it's made as a checklist
rather than as something that's

650
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,280
really intentional and meant to
be Co designed with end user in

651
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:10,760
mind.
And so when we talk about

652
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,920
infrastructure, we're talking
about really these foundational

653
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,360
aspects of, of not just the code
itself, which is the technical

654
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,680
part, but the philosophy that
goes into literally designing

655
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,360
the entire platform.
The logical flow of, you know,

656
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,400
how to get end user from point A
to point B, how to get them from

657
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,280
point B to check out.
Or in the case of, you know, for

658
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,160
instance, health firms, which
we've already started a few

659
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,680
pilots with.
How do you support an older

660
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,000
patient in being able to
navigate this labyrinth that is

661
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,400
the online world for them, being
able to help them set

662
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,040
appointments for preventative
checking, for seeing the doctor,

663
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,640
for being supported to healthily
age, right?

664
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:54,040
These are extremely huge
problems and just glaring gaps

665
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,800
for the health industry, for the
government, you know, for the

666
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,880
entire world, because the world
is rapidly aging.

667
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,640
By 2050, we're going to have
billions of older people,

668
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,800
including you and me, right?
The kinds of symptoms of of

669
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,440
aging are obviously not
avoidable.

670
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,199
And I think it's really an
amazing thing that we can age to

671
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:13,760
such a degree because that means
that our standard of living has

672
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,000
been raised so much by societal
progress in a lot of ways.

673
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,560
How do we create guardrails?
How do we create platforms and

674
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,639
systems and infrastructure that
is truly inclusive of us, that

675
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:29,639
we're future proofing for
ourselves?

676
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:33,480
You know when we get older, we
will live in a world that is

677
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,639
accessible to us when you are.
Pitching this to potential

678
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:40,400
investors or potential pilot
users or potential partners.

679
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,920
Do you get any resistance or is
it something that comes across

680
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,560
and is accepted quite naturally?
That's such an interesting

681
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,960
question.
I would say that we, so the

682
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,440
issue that we're addressing
it's, it feels like we're sort

683
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,240
of educating people as we're
doing this, which is what I find

684
00:34:57,240 --> 00:34:58,800
the most fulfilling part of
this.

685
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,720
Every step that we take and
every action that we take is

686
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:06,080
spreading awareness about a, a
really big pain point that a lot

687
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,400
of people experience.
The reaction that we get a lot

688
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,040
from partners, from anyone is,
Oh my God, my grandma, my

689
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,560
grandpa really needs this.
I really hope it works because

690
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,200
it's such a pain helping them
with digital technology or it's,

691
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,800
it's, I don't have enough time.
And I really hope that this can

692
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,640
become a reality so that
platforms can be more usable for

693
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,560
my grandparents.
I don't have to spend so much

694
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,280
time helping them use YouTube
anymore with partners,

695
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,440
collaborators.
I think different sectors will

696
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,160
have different reactions.
Most people are extremely, you

697
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,240
know, aligned with our mission.
And I find that really amazing

698
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,440
because obviously there are lots
of founders who might be dealing

699
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,200
with with femtekers on the end
and there's maybe less

700
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,040
resonance.
But for us, we're also dealing

701
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,200
with an issue that is not
necessarily gender specific.

702
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,800
So there's a lot more resonance
across the board in the health

703
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,040
space.
The pertinence of this is not

704
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,560
just in terms of revenue, it's
not just in terms of social

705
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,560
impact, it's literally in terms
of life or death.

706
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,520
Older patients being able to use
digital platforms to create an

707
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,120
appointment for a preventative
disease screening is literally

708
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,240
lowering death rates as
literally contributing to their

709
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:11,560
longevity.
We have quite a lot of, you

710
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,080
know, cross sector synergy and
and engagements in place.

711
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,680
If you're going to like events,
platforms or financial services,

712
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,680
their responses typically will
be a little bit more cautious.

713
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,080
And it's not actually because of
the mission, but because of the

714
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:25,960
fact that we're AI driven,
right?

715
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,440
People are interesting,
rightfully cautious about, I

716
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:30,680
think especially financial
service abuse.

717
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,480
It's it's very strictly
regulated.

718
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:38,600
And so that I think that tension
is also there where they really

719
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,960
believe in the mission, but they
also have just really slow,

720
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:45,640
really lots of bureaucratic and
lots of blue tape.

721
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,880
And that's what I also find so
intellectually stimulating about

722
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:50,680
this process.
You just learned so much about

723
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,120
industries that you just, you
can't really imagine a lot of

724
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,160
like how people respond when you
talk to them about this.

725
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,520
And then you learn about every
industry's different needs.

726
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:03,720
Event services companies, we
never expected to be potential

727
00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:05,280
clients.
We didn't, we that just wasn't

728
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,080
on our mind.
But actually a lot of event

729
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,120
services, they are also really
focused on inclusion.

730
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:12,880
A lot of people are thinking
about especially older age

731
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,120
inclusion more than we had
actually expected.

732
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,440
And then I would say on the
investor side, because I also

733
00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:20,160
run Gossip Group, which is an
Angel syndicate.

734
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,000
I'm an investor myself.
I do understand where investors

735
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,040
come from a lot more.
And we've gotten a lot of

736
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,120
really, really great enthusiasm
and excitement for what we're

737
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,520
doing.
That's really encouraging to

738
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,560
hear actually, Linda, and whilst
we were talking that actually

739
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,960
brought to mind a speech that I
heard and Bowden who found a

740
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,600
Sterling Bank give a while ago.
I think she was saying one of

741
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,480
her core focuses of interesting
areas of technology is actually

742
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,200
technology that can make our
time on earth, which is going to

743
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,200
be longer and longer.
It's how can we actually make

744
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,240
our years on earth be enjoyable
and livable.

745
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,400
There's not just about living
for longer amount of years.

746
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,920
There's actually how can we
maximize the amount of in

747
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,840
control how people connected
lives that we are able to live.

748
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:05,440
Let me then ask you, our podcast
staple, what do you think is one

749
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,480
thing that we allow more people
to have better mental health?

750
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,160
Wow, that's, that's a big
question.

751
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,520
I guess just sticking with the
theme of everything I said,

752
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:21,720
think being able to have true
autonomy over your life is

753
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,000
really the foundation for health
and Wellness.

754
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,920
And ever since the word and that
true autonomy comes from feeling

755
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,760
included in the spaces that
you're in and the tools that

756
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,800
you're, you know, able to access
and use and the ability to build

757
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,240
a joyful life for yourself.
And that means accessible.

758
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:46,080
You have access to green spaces,
access to good food, access to

759
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,640
community that you need, access
to great transport if you need

760
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:50,960
it.
An amalgamation of everything we

761
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,200
talked about today, autonomy and
and and freedom and support and

762
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,240
inclusion.
These are really the basics of

763
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,440
any kind of happy and healthy
life.

764
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,680
And really infantry labs and
gossip group really feel like my

765
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,760
lifes work to making better
mental health for everybody.

766
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,080
Better health and Wellness for
everyone.

767
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,360
Just a true reality and not just
saying it or but actually like

768
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,160
literally putting the work in to
do it.

769
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,000
Going into tech and getting my
hands dirty and really showing

770
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,480
people that profit and purpose
are not contradictory to each

771
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,400
other.
It it really is my life's work.

772
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,880
Linda, thank you so much for
sharing that and also for

773
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,120
opening up about your personal
experiences and how it LED you

774
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,600
to try out different things and
finally into the work that

775
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,360
you're doing today, which is
super important.

776
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,680
It's been a pleasure to have you
on the Load to Grow podcast.

777
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:46,120
Thank you for having me, the
pleasure's all mine.

778
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,280
That's a wrap for today's
episode of the Load to Grow

779
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,320
podcast.
If it resonated with you, leave

780
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,000
a review and hit follow to help
more people to find important

781
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:57,840
conversations.